Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[molonel]

I never intended to denigrate powergamers. I was merely asking whether 3E/3.5 required a certain amount of "power-gaming" with the need for numerous magic items to balance out encounters, and the advent of monsters with classes leading to very high CRs.

Out of curiosity, would you expect a normal group of human beings to be able to defeat a room of giants twenty or more feet high using non-magical metal swords and chainmail? I wouldn't.

The conclusion I've drawn is that this is true to a certain extent, and some gamers dislike it, but as others have pointed out, alternatives exist and it is certainly possible to iron out these difficulties.

It's not that I dislike it. I simply think you are hopelessly steeped in nostalgia for a system I'm not at all sure you played that much. I own original copies of the giant modules, and the drow modules that followed them. I played them when you could still buy the original modules off the shelves. I remember the original modules had the Hammer of Thunderbolts in one of the treasure hordes.

Lolth was a joke. She wasn't a goddess. Nobody thought it then, and nobody would think it now. She had 99 hit points. She was a paper tiger that was designed to roar loudly and crumple like a b**** when you socked her in the jaw.

I would MUCH rather play the modules now, not because I am a rampant powergamer (nor do I take offense at the term, either) but simply because fighting an encounter of that scope and magnitude is NOT a low level adventure.

D&D very quickly spun out of control in 1st Edition after 10th level. That wasn't a strong point of the game, either. There were things I liked about 1st Edition, but the levels above 10 were poorly designed. Third Edition falls apart in a similar fashion somewhere between 15th and low epic levels, in my opinion.

I played 1st Edition, and Basic. I played 2nd Edition. D&D is more fun now than it's ever been before. It has a wider audience. It has better product support. It doesn't have TSR hunting down websites and trying to squelch customer loyalty by being a bunch of punks. It has Monte Cook, and Mongoose's Conan variant and the OGL license spawning a LOT of work. Some good, some bad, but all good for the game.

I loved 1st Edition. But if I had the power to turn back the clock, I wouldn't. Because things are better now.

 

[MerricB]

I've just grabbed out my old copy of G1-3 (boy, I got it over 20 years ago... I'm feeling old).

King Snurre is (incredibly) in area 3 of the adventure - surely the earliest of any "boss" monster of any dungeon? He fights as a storm giant when armed with his sword (7-42 damage!) or as a cloud giant when not.

Interestingly, King Snurre actually *has* 3e stats, due to the D&D Miniatures release of his figure (a very nice one, as well)

Here's how he ended up:

King Snurre: CR 14; large giant fighter 4, HD 19, HP 226, Init +4, AC 25, Spd 30 ft
Atk: Sword +30/+25/+20 (3d6+23 magic plus 3d6 fire/17-20) or Rock +14 (2d6+12 plus 2d6 fire)
SV: Fort +20, Ref +8, Will +10
AB: S 35, D 10, C 24, I 12, W 14, Ch 13
F: Cleave, Improved Overrun, Power Attack.

So, a good challenge for a 12th level party within the context of the adventure. A regular Fire Giant has CR 10, btw. (HD 15, HP 142, AC 23, Atk +20/+15/+10 for 3d6+15)

Cheers!

 

[VirgilCaine]

F: Cleave, Improved Overrun, Power Attack.

Of course, with 19 HD, he would have three times this many feats (10) in full 3e...Improved Critical, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Combat Expertise/Whirlwind Attack sounds very nasty...not to mention anything from PHBII or CW.

 

[MerricB]

Of course, with 19 HD, he would have three times this many feats (10) in full 3e...Improved Critical, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Combat Expertise/Whirlwind Attack sounds very nasty...not to mention anything from PHBII or CW.

He does actually have more feats, but they're constant ones (e.g. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec), not conditional ones. Only conditional feats needed in play are listed.

Cheers!

 

[thedungeondelver]

Out of curiosity, would you expect a normal group of human beings to be able to defeat a room of giants twenty or more feet high using non-magical metal swords and chainmail? I wouldn't.



It's not that I dislike it. I simply think you are hopelessly steeped in nostalgia for a system I'm not at all sure you played that much. I own original copies of the giant modules, and the drow modules that followed them. I played them when you could still buy the original modules off the shelves. I remember the original modules had the Hammer of Thunderbolts in one of the treasure hordes.

"hopelessly" - could you please be more patronizing? I can almost cut through it with a knife. Next time go for "too thick to drip".

"Nostalgia". That's another one. I hear that term bandied about by post 1e gamers and I've reached the (correct) conclusion that the definition being used here is "hey, you're playing and advocating an older system I don't like any more!" It's never used in the positive - at best it's a little conversational condescension, at worst a thinly-veiled insult

Lolth was a joke. She wasn't a goddess. Nobody thought it then, and nobody would think it now. She had 99 hit points. She was a paper tiger that was designed to roar loudly and crumple like a b**** when you socked her in the jaw.

Sixty-six. She could heal herself fully 2x a day. She was attended by her Handmaidens (remember them? you had to plow through them while she was gateing in all types of demons), she'd be using magic-user and cleric spells nearly at-will, psionically attacking and if all else failed she could simply will the PCs away or will herself away.

Don't mistake a badly run monster for a badly designed monster. It isn't the module's fault you had a poor DM.

I played 1st Edition, and Basic. I played 2nd Edition. D&D is more fun now than it's ever been before. It has a wider audience.

....eeeeeeeexcept it doesn't. Name a current D&D supplement that's sold two hundred thousand copies. At it's peak in the early 80's, D&D enjoyed an audience of some four million players. What is it now, one point five? Maybe two with the wind at it's back?

It has better product support.

It has a diluted product base where the industry basically goes "throw it to the wall, see what sticks!" courtesy of OGL/d20.

I loved 1st Edition. But if I had the power to turn back the clock, I wouldn't. Because things are better now.

"better" is purely subjective.

 

[buzz]

Name a current D&D supplement that's sold two hundred thousand copies.

This is kind of a specious argument, given that no one involved in this conversation has access to reliable sales data. You're also comparing an edition that had a 10-year lifespan to one with a four-year (or six, if you merge 3.0 and 3.5). Where are you getting your numbers?

Regardless, you could probably make a good case for Spell Compendium, PHB2, and some of the Complete series, as they've been in the Amazon Gaming Top 10 since their release.

At it's peak in the early 80's, D&D enjoyed an audience of some four million players. What is it now, one point five? Maybe two with the wind at it's back?

According to WotC, it's 4 million. As far as I know, these numbers are up from the tail end of 1e and the 2e eras. Ref: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6261698/

There's also the D&D MMORPG, the various bestselling novels, bestselling CRPGs, Dummies books, movies, minis game... the big RPG wave of the early '80s may be over, but D&D as a brand is strong as heck.

It has a diluted product base where the industry basically goes "throw it to the wall, see what sticks!" courtesy of OGL/d20.

That bubble burst a few years ago. I would think this argument would also contradic your previous assertion about 3.x's unpopularity.

And if any edition screams "Throw it to the wall, see what sticks," it's 2e. I mean, TSR went bankrupt partly due to this.

"better" is purely subjective.

Possibly... though I think that both 2e and 3e were objectively better in some ways, at least in terms of textual clarity.

Still, sure, it's subjective. Please remember that. It does not follow that, because you like 1e, 3e must be somehow deficient. It's possible for both of them to be perfectly enjoyable, but some prefer one over the other.

BTW, you need to go hang out on dragonsfoot.org. You can complain about 3e all day and get resounding agreement.

 

[Jim Hague]

Sixty-six. She could heal herself fully 2x a day. She was attended by her Handmaidens (remember them? you had to plow through them while she was gateing in all types of demons), she'd be using magic-user and cleric spells nearly at-will, psionically attacking and if all else failed she could simply will the PCs away or will herself away.

But remember, folks - 3e is 'video gamey' and 'powergamey'. As opposed to an NPC using cleric and magic-user spells at will, gating in demons and psionically attacking. Yeah. Let's not forget the supervillain escape clause there, either.

Don't mistake a badly run monster for a badly designed monster. It isn't the module's fault you had a poor DM.

And don't mistake a poorly designed, overpowering creature for a bad DM.

....eeeeeeeexcept it doesn't. Name a current D&D supplement that's sold two hundred thousand copies. At it's peak in the early 80's, D&D enjoyed an audience of some four million players. What is it now, one point five? Maybe two with the wind at it's back?

It has a diluted product base where the industry basically goes "throw it to the wall, see what sticks!" courtesy of OGL/d20.

"better" is purely subjective.

That's 4 million current D&D players in the US...plus another, oh, 1-2 million playing other games. Just in the US. And that's just a rough, rough estimate. The RPG market is fragmented to an extent, yes, but there's also a huge variety of games out there that simply weren't present in the 1980s. Stop sitting there and making specious arguments.

 

[buzz]

That's 4 million current D&D players in the US...plus another, oh, 1-2 million playing other games. Just in the US. And that's just a rough, rough estimate.

It's worth noting that our sources for these numbers, both now and in the past, are typically the game's publisher (TSR then, WotC now), and thus you can raise all sorts of doubts. FWIW, WotC (via Charles Ryan) claimed that, as of the 30th anniversary, there were more people playing D&D than at any point previous.

I think all we can really say is that, of the total gaming population, the majority of them are playing some edition of D&D. The 2e era was probably the only time there was a noticeable loss of fanbase. Anecdotal evidence would probably point to 3e, if anything, bringing fans back to D&D, not to mention creating a whole new sector of the market via the d20STL/OGL. (A model which 1e fans are benefiting from, BTW, via OSRIC and, arguably, C&C.)

 

[Umbran]

As opposed to the snarky tone you're taking? .... Pot, meet kettle.

Folks, I am sorry that I'm going to have to remind everyone here to please not get personal in the discussion. Everyone has their own tastes, and returning snark with more snark, or by getting "in your face" as a response to percieved snark, is not constructive. Getting confrontational is not a solution to the problem, so please avoid doing so.

If you cannot respond to a post without referring to what you think is the other poster's state of mind, instead of the post content, you probably should reconsider responding at all. That goes for everyone here.

 

[billd91]

Sixty-six. She could heal herself fully 2x a day. She was attended by her Handmaidens (remember them? you had to plow through them while she was gateing in all types of demons), she'd be using magic-user and cleric spells nearly at-will, psionically attacking and if all else failed she could simply will the PCs away or will herself away.

Don't mistake a badly run monster for a badly designed monster. It isn't the module's fault you had a poor DM.

So she could heal herself and she had a very strong AC. But at 66 hit points, she was still designed to have a glass jaw. Healing herself or even willing herself away wasn't going to do any good if she didn't manage to use it. She was designed to be defeatable by 12-15th level characters as the climax to the series... and she most certainly was.