Does 4th edition hinder roleplaying?

[OchreJelly]

ugh... well I'll bite. I did read the blog and it's a bit ranty, especially the last few paragraphs that have the ENTITLEMENT, my-way-or-the-highway bent. But this is the internet so I shouldn't read into things too closely

I get what he's saying. I really do. He's saying he wants a dabbler multiclass that would actually like to multiclass out of his original role. In his example of being bored playing the scorcerer by maybe only taking a level or two and then multiclass into something else. I say, "what's stopping him?" In this case I would work with the DM and say "next level I'm writing up my character as a monk who multis into sorcerer. Same character and background, just a different emphasis". Presto! You have your have your same character, only the sheet is different.

I realize my solution isn't perfect, but if the poster is going to present corner-case scenarios, then he gets a corner-case solution. Personally I'm happy the game no longer supports sub-optimal builds. Notice how none of this actually influences how you choose to roleplay your character? A point that seems somehow lost to the blogger.

 

[dbm]

Couple of thoughts on this.

Firstly, 4e does allow for character mutation in the way the blogger wants, it just doesn't serve it up all in one chunk:

Start as a Sorceror,
Multiclass in to Warlord,
Take the multiclass power feats
Go in to Paragon multiclassing.

That seems like a fairly good simulation of switching from being a sorceror to a Warlord without forgetting how to be a sorceror too (difficult to do at 11+ I admit, but by then you are 'entrenched' in your current role).

One of the criticisms of earlier additions was that it was unrealistic to allow a person to one day wake up and decide that today they would achieve all the learning normally associated with a 15 year apprenticeship with a master wizard, so I don't think that earlier versions of D&D were exemplars for simulating reality either. If you want that, play GURPS or HERO.

Finally, I don't see 4e as necessarily gamist, perhaps more narativist(sp?). As Phaezen suggested above, when a player whips out their daily martial power then have taken a split second of story control and said that the conditions are right for their super technique to be deployed at that moment in time. If you think about it, this actually mirrors quite well the escalation of power you see in manga (some may see this as a bad thing...) and similar genres where by the Guyver doesn't always start a fight with his biggest gun. He works up to that, using successively more powerful attacks until he decides he needs the big one. My experience of 4e combat matches this pattern strongly.

On the flip side, I think that Skill Challenges actually increase the possibilities for roleplaying, by giving an objective way of using character skill and knowledge to overcome opposition without resorting to combat. True roleplaying (controversial!) is to work within the limits of your character as well as their strengths. I'm pretty diplomatic in real life, I engage in contract negotiations with clients. That doesn't mean all my characters should be highly diplomatic. How is that represented? Well, if my character has poor CHA and isn't trained in Diplomacy then they are unlikely to make a skill check. This is a good thing in my book.

Cheers
Dan

 

[Fanaelialae]

I disagree with the blog. Saying that 4E multiclassing discourages roleplaying? IMO, that's silly.

While 4E multiclassing may not be perfect, 3.x multiclassing was far from perfect itself- in 4E I don't suddenly take a whopping 20% xp penalty for deciding (for RP or non-RP reasons) to multiclass after 3rd level. While I can't imagine it would have ever happened in actual gameplay (which, I agree, makes it a total strawman), I always found it amusing that in 3.x it was possible to create an 8th level character with 6 classes and a 100% xp penalty. I very much doubt a system exists that can please all of the people all of the time.

As for which is a better system, though my players and I much prefer 4E, I think it really boils down to a matter of personal preference.

 

[Pickles JG]

The bad part - I've noticed 4E attracts some players who are not good roleplayers because of the excellent(by gamy standards) combat system, which requires no roleplaying. So, you have a table with a few good roleplayers and a few good board gamers, so of course the roleplay isn't going to be as good as something with only the
roleplaying carrot to attract your players.

This is my argument as to why 4e undermines role playing. The combat system is so good that that is what I want to do all the time. In any other RPG (except 3.5 & Feng Shui with a good group) combat has never lived up to my expectations & is something to get past to get back to the RP. 4ed is the other way round.

That said mine is merely an observation of my experiences. In principal, as pretty much all participants, have said RP is how you play & nothing in 4ed explicitly gets in the way of this.

Regarding GURPS & martial manoevres - being able to perfom your killer attack exactly when you want to every 2 seconds is no more reallistic than only being able to do it once a day. (My view of GURPS is that its realism is chimerical but I guess someone must rate it.)

 

[Remathilis]

I guess BECMI and OD&D discourages role-playing as well, since neither of them have a multi-classing system.

Same with C&C, LL, etc.

I guess I hallucinated all that role-playing I did when I was a dwarf (that was my race AND my class, youngling!)

 

[OchreJelly]

You say it like it's a bad thing! In truth I had a similar experience with 3E. We were all so excited to try out the shiny new mechanics that actual RP fell by the wayside for a time. Same was true with 4E. Perhaps your experience is more a reflection of the newness of the system?

I do see where you're coming from though. Our 4E sessions are comprised of mostly combat, but that's how my group typically rolls anyway. Lately I have been upping the more RP-focused skill challenges which have been pretty successful for the most part.

 

[Krensky]

If you think about it, this actually mirrors quite well the escalation of power you see in manga (some may see this as a bad thing...) and similar genres where by the Guyver doesn't always start a fight with his biggest gun. He works up to that, using successively more powerful attacks until he decides he needs the big one. My experience of 4e combat matches this pattern strongly.

Thank you, this made a number of things click in my head that had been tumbling around for a while. 4e is a High Fantasy themed Super Sentai RPG. Five characters as the base, tightly defined roles, attacks with catchy names and escalating power level and rarity of use.

And no, this is not an insult to either 4e or Super Sentai.

 

[Jack99]

This is my argument as to why 4e undermines role playing. The combat system is so good that that is what I want to do all the time. In any other RPG (except 3.5 & Feng Shui with a good group) combat has never lived up to my expectations & is something to get past to get back to the RP. 4ed is the other way round.

We have the complete opposite experience. Despite everyone finding 4e combat superior to every other incarnation of the game, we have more roleplaying than we have had for a decade. No one can say why though.

 

[Phaezen]

I guess BECMI and OD&D discourages role-playing as well, since neither of them have a multi-classing system.

Same with C&C, LL, etc.

I guess I hallucinated all that role-playing I did when I was a dwarf (that was my race AND my class, youngling!)

Don't be silly, Dwarves have no class *rimshot*

 

[Wormwood]

Thank you, this made a number of things click in my head that had been tumbling around for a while. 4e is a High Fantasy themed Super Sentai RPG. Five characters as the base, tightly defined roles, attacks with catchy names and escalating power level and rarity of use.

I actually like this analogy---and I'm one of the biggest 4e enthusiasts around.

Heavy Metal Power Rangers is a fair summary of what I want out of D&D