Does a Death Ward Protect against Phantasmal Killer?

[Xylix]

Supernatural abilities with descriptors:

You are speaking of refrences, the abilities themselves have no descripters.

sonic, mind-affecting, compulsion

Thus you agree that effects described in text, confer a spell a nature without a descriptor tag.

Obviously untrue. (See above.)

You fail to understand the nature of an argument. You first stated:

If it doesn't have the Death descriptor, it isn't a death spell.

I pointed out that this wasn't sufficient counter argument because it fails to address the second point of the spell. The very part I origionally brought up.

Thus when I pointed out once again I was looking at the second part you stated:

* Magical death effects (i.e., magical effects with the Death descriptor)

I asked on what presumption did you make that it must have a descriptor. Apparently this is completely your own conclution.

However, the descriptors (provided in tags above spells, as explained in the PHB before approaching the spell lists)


next

The designers saw fit to fill the core rulebooks with errors.

I agree, thus Phantamal Killer is a death spell.

Supernatural abilities with descriptors:

However, the problem arises because the descriptor now can be internal text. Therefore if I see the word 'death' or a word that implies death. I can conclude, as I have, the spell is a death spell because that is what YOU have done. You have now accepted an intrinsic premise to my argument, you have not disproved it.

Which was the entire point of bringing it up in the first place.

Obviously a flawed definition. Many spells kill. Fireball can result in the death of the target, but that does not mean that it is a "magical death effect".

The death ward spell excluded that AFTER the primary sentance, meaning that the primary sentance did INDEED contain these factors. Which is why the developers added those exceptions.

It eliminated anything that kills by indirect means, or does not actually 'kill' per say. Damage is indirect you take damage THEN die, you lose attribute points THEN die. With phatasmal killer this is not the case. You just die.

It did not use what would if your conclusion was correct, use the extremely simple explanation of that 'it does not apply to any spell without a death descriptor'

Also not true. It is used against energy drain and paralysis, amoung other things.

So quick to exclude, so what, they are now on the list. It still is the case of #4. You have failed to prove anything. You have failed to even show this is flawed.

To do that you need a counter point, show that the save is for something else, not death, cause directly through magic.

Show an example ANYWHERE in the books of fear killing through 'non-magic' perhaps you have an excuse. That would nullify the point, showing that there are more examples that don't apply is as pointless as pointing the sun rises.





You have not offered an arugment. You have no basis for your reasoning. You draw upon nothing for your statements. You merely make them. Your statements continually fail to hold water.

Why they heck should I belive you? Because YOU said so? I think not, if you wish to state a contending point you got to support it. That is the very nature of logic, no one will accept your argument unless they agree with your premise. Your premise IS your argument and I don't accept it.

 

[the Jester]

Phantasmal killer is a fear effect, not a death effect. Yes, it kills via magical fear. That's still a fear effect, not a death effect, just as a lightning bolt kills by electricity and is an electrical effect, not a death effect.

If a monster has a special ability that says, "this works just like x" then the ability has the descriptors of x.

Death ward doesn't block fear effects, disintigration, poison that deals lethal con damage, petrification, or whatever. Descriptors, according to pg. 152 of the PH, "have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on..."

It's pretty clear that, at least in the PH, the designers tried hard to make sure all the descriptors got in there.

What does get the Death descriptor? Things like finger of death, the death domain's death touch power, slay living, etc. Things that directly attack the life force. Not things that are really scary.

Please, folks, let's all be nice- no need for anyone to get testy here.

 

[mkletch]

Logical operators are FAIRLY simple.

Wow this is a friendly little thread. [Checks PHB...] No "death" in brackets next to the school for Phantasmal Killer. So it's not a death spell, nor would a supernatural or spell-like ability duplicating this spell be a magical death effect.

To paraphrase: "Reading the rules is FAIRLY simple (at least in this case )".

-Fletch!

 

[Celtavian]

Death ward states very specifically that it protects against "Death Effects and magical death attacks."

It does not state spells specifically with the death descriptor. That is why I am unsure.


One can surely surmise that a Bodak's gaze, Beholder's Eye Ray, and other such attacks are death effects.

The real question is whether only spells with the Necromancy (Death) Descriptor are magical death effects. Phantasmal killer consists of two parts: Will save to disbelieve and Fort save or die.

The only spells I know of that kill with a Fort save are death spells. On the other hand even (i)Power Word, Kill(/i) lists the descriptor death though it is a Conjuration (Creation) Spell.

No one knows of any sage ruling on the matter?

 

[Darklone]

Hmm, do you think a paladin (immune to fear) is immune to Phantasmal killer?

Guys, use common sense.

 

[hong]

Hmm, do you think a paladin (immune to fear) is immune to Phantasmal killer?

Yep.

Is this a trick question?

 

[hong]

The only spells I know of that kill with a Fort save are death spells.

Disintegrate is not a death spell. This is perhaps the canonical counterexample to the assertion that all instakill effects are death effects.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Hmmmm...ok.

Phantasmal Kills causes death through fear, so a Paladin is immune.

But death ward only protects against death effects that directly attack the life force of the target as indicated by the descriptor [death]. If it kills by some other means that does not attack the life force like fear or disintegrate, then death ward has no effect.

Any thing that boosts fear saves adds to ones save against Phantasmal killer.

This sounds like a reasonable way to arbitrate the spell.

 

[AuraSeer]

Hmm, do you think a paladin (immune to fear) is immune to Phantasmal killer?

Absolutely. The spell has the [Fear] descriptor, therefore paladins are immune to it.

 

[0-hr]

The spells says death spells AND magical death effects.


Logical operators are FAIRLY simple.

The "magical death effect" referes to non-spell death effects. In all cases, these are explicitly stated. Here are some examples:

This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type of creature. If it
strikes such a creature, the target must make a Fortitude save
(DC 20) or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be
destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt
from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this
attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect
(and thus death ward protects a target). To determine the type of
creature the arrow is keyed to, roll on the following table

Granted Power: You may use a death touch once per day. Your
death touch is a spell-like ability that is a death effect. You
must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature
(using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per
your cleric level. If the total at least equals the
creatures current hit points, it dies.

And honestly, before you convince your DM that every lethal spell is a "magical death effect" keep this in mind:

Raise Dead
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or
killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.