Does a human using a weapon made for a giant get reach?

[Iku Rex]

Once it's tweaked for 3.5 and the language tidied up a little, the Savage Species system makes a lot of sense.

But it was released prior to 3.5, and the 3.5 Reach weapon system is effectively identical to the original 3E (pre-SS) system.

That's an argument in favor of, not against, the official status of the SS system. If it was written with the 3.5 system i mind - fine. If it was written with the 3.0 system in mind - also fine, as there aren't any changes in 3.5.

The Savage Species variant is no longer the official rule.

It's better than the official rule, but it's not the way it works in Core 3.5

Actually, WotC seems to consider SS a 3.5 book. It incorporates many 3.5 rules, and the SS FAQ is part of the main 3.5 FAQ.

I realize that the rules following my quote use 3.0 weapon size rules, but that doesn't invalidate the main rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's an argument in favor of, not against, the official status of the SS system. If it was written with the 3.5 system i mind - fine. If it was written with the 3.0 system in mind - also fine, as there aren't any changes in 3.5.

It's not a clarification of the core system, though... it's completely different.

Since it was written before 3.5, if it were intended to be used in 3.5, it would be in the 3.5 core rules. It isn't.

Under the Savage Species system, a Large Longspear (normal size for a Medium creature in 3E) downsized to a Medium Longspear (appropriate for a Small creature in 3E) would decrease from 10' to 5' reach.

In the 3.5 system, both a Small Longspear and a Medium Longspear (appropriate for a Small and Medium creature respectively) have 10' reach.

In the 3.5 system, an Ogre with a Large Longspear has a reach of 20' (though he doesn't threaten within 10'). Under the Savage Species system, a Huge Longspear (appropriately sized for a Large creature) has a reach of 15'. It's not really clear what that means (which is why I say that it needs to be updated for 3.5 and tweaked... it was a good idea, but badly written), but it's obviously not the same as what's in the 3.5 PHB.

If the SS system were meant to be used in 3.5... it would be in 3.5. It's certainly not the official 3.5 rule.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

Since it was written before 3.5, if it were intended to be used in 3.5, it would be in the 3.5 core rules.

SS was written/completed after 3.5 was (pretty much?) done. Like I said it incorporates many 3.5 rules and WotC considers it a 3.5 book.

Under the Savage Species system, a Large Longspear (normal size for a Medium creature in 3E) downsized to a Medium Longspear (appropriate for a Small creature in 3E) would decrease from 10' to 5' reach.

Like I said, Small-to-Medium (3.5) is an obvious exception.

In the 3.5 system, an Ogre with a Large Longspear has a reach of 20' (though he doesn't threaten within 10'). Under the Savage Species system, a Huge Longspear (appropriately sized for a Large creature) has a reach of 15'. It's not really clear what that means (which is why I say that it needs to be updated for 3.5 and tweaked... it was a good idea, but badly written), but it's obviously not the same as what's in the 3.5 PHB.

Actually, if you apply a little common sense, the Ogre has 5' "extra reach" while the longspear has a 15' reach. Combined: 20' reach.

It may not be as clear as we'd like, but it's just as unclear in 3.0 as it is in 3.5. For one thing, it's obviously not the same as what's in the 3.0 PH. Surely that proves that it's not a 3.0 rule. Right?

 

[Hypersmurf]

SS was written/completed after 3.5 was (pretty much?) done. Like I said it incorporates many 3.5 rules and WotC considers it a 3.5 book.

Many 3.5 rules... but not that one

Or lots of others.

Actually, if you apply a little common sense, the Ogre has 5' "extra reach" while the longspear has a 15' reach. Combined: 20' reach.

It's why the SS rules need tweaking - the reach weapons should give a modifier that 'shifts' one's natural reach. A Medium (3.5) reach weapon would have a 5' modifier; a Large reach weapon a 10' modifier. So a human Monkey-Gripping a Large longspear would threaten at 15', but not 5' or 10'. An ogre with a Medium longspear would threaten at 10' and 15', but not 5'.

For one thing, it's obviously not the same as what's in the 3.0 PH. Surely that proves that it's not a 3.0 rule. Right?

That's like saying the Share Spells rules in Tome and Blood are not 3E rules. They're 3E rules, but they're not 3E core, and they're certainly not 3.5 core.

Just like the reach weapon rules in Savage Species - which are absolutely 3E rules, since they use the 3E sizing system - are certainly not 3.5 core. A DM is welcome to use them in his game after updating them for 3.5, but the default rule in 3.5 is found in the PHB, not in Savage Species.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

Just like the reach weapon rules in Savage Species - which are absolutely 3E rules, since they use the 3E sizing system - are certainly not 3.5 core. A DM is welcome to use them in his game after updating them for 3.5, but the default rule in 3.5 is found in the PHB, not in Savage Species.

Are the SS rules 3.0 core? Where do I find the default 3.0 rule for Large or bigger creatures with reach weapons?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are the SS rules 3.0 core?

Absolutely not. They're from a 3e supplement.

Where do I find the default 3.0 rule for Large or bigger creatures with reach weapons?

In the PHB. I'm away from my book, and the relevant section isn't in the 3E SRD. I'll find the quote for you in about 12 hours, unless someone else gets to it first.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

From 3.0 PHB p. 132:

Large or Bigger Creatures with Reach Weapons: Large or bigger creatures with reach weapons can strike out to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less. For example, an ogre with an ogre-sized longspear could strike at 15 or 20 feet but not at 5 or 10 feet.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's the one

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

I know what the 3.0 PH said - if you recall my argument depends on it.

May I remind you that we were discussing the 3.5 status of the SS rule?

Where you found it relevant (?) that the rule was badly written and unclear, that it wasn't "3.5 core", and that it wasn't the "default rule". All of which applies equally well in 3.0.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where you found it relevant (?) that the rule was badly written and unclear, that it wasn't "3.5 core", and that it wasn't the "default rule". All of which applies equally well in 3.0.

Right. The Savage Species rule, written in 3E terms, applies to 3E if the DM chooses to use Savage Species in his game.

It applies to 3.5 if the DM chooses to use Savage Species in his game, and rewrites the rule to use the 3.5 sizing system.

So the answer to "What reach does a Medium creature with a Monkey-Gripped Large longspear have in 3.5?" is "ten feet, but doesn't threaten adjacent... unless your DM has rewritten the Savage Species rule for 3.5 and chooses to use it, or has come up with some other house rule".

-Hyp.