Does a publisher/author's interaction here influence your purchases?

[Glyfair]

Conversely, I think consumer decorum has degenerated so badly in the past decade as consumers have swollen with a false sense of entitlement that, given a society that falsely tells them they are always right for no other reason than to toss another begging bowl in a world of artificially depressed margins, that reading something that doesn't take your fancy on the Internet strikes me as an excellent start.

I agree with you about consumer decorum. However, that's not what the discussion is about here. It's not the behavior of the customer that affects the decision, it's the behavior of the producer of the product.

A complete lurker will decide not to buy a product based on the behavior of the producer. Indeed, I believe the one or two cases where I saw behavior on a forum that caused me to avoid a company's products were in threads I had no participation in, at all.

But Neal's nice, so who cares, right?

Then you would have bought from the guy who I think almost screwed me.

Maybe, maybe not. A company that has a reputation for not paying their employees (direct or indirect) shouldn't stay in business long. s a consumer, it's not my job to do research and find out if the company pays it's freelancers. That's the job of the freelancers who work for them.

Now, if the situation is that the guys who behave badly online are the only ones who pay on time, then I'd buy your argument. However, if you are saying that, then I just don't believe you.

Does that mean that those publishers and authors that only post to promote their products are actually safer from hurting your impression of them since they don't get involved in discussions? After all, things are a lot less likely to turn ugly if all you ever do is pop onto EnWorld to announce a new release.

Safer from hurting my impression of them? Probably.

However, I'll note that I've bought a lot more because of positive things people have contributed to the forums than I've avoided buying because of bad behavior on the forums.

I'll also note that my standard for who I'd avoid because of bad behavior isn't low. To take an example, over the years I've noticed one major publisher make a couple of posts that I consider to have crossed the line of decorum on the forums. However, overall I found them to be a positive on the forums (I wish they were still posing here regularly). I've probably bought more from the company due to his contributions to ENWorld.

It's not the occasional snittiness I mind, it's a pattern of being unconcerned about how to behave and what's appropriate.

More importantly, what internet customers in particular fail to realize is how insignificant they are in the total pool of customers.

However, one thing that drill into you in retail about customer service is that it's not that one customer you have to worry about. Every bad experience with a company gets told to ten people (if I remember the statitisics correctly), every good experience with a company gets told to one.

I know that among my gaming groups, I'm the only one who regularly reads things online and am likely to see these situations. However, if I tell my gaming group I won't buy from a certain company and explain why, that can have an influence on a lot more opinions of the company than just mine.

Of course, this has a side effect on philreed's point. If you are a positive force within the community, it's probably more likely to affect sales from those that see it. However, it's unlikely to spread far past that. On the other hand, if you are seen as a negative force within the community, it will spread much further past those that see it.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

No.

The industry includes people (writers, editors, publishers, etc.) I dislike, some because of things they've posted here or elsewhere. In probably the most prominent case, the person in question also does a great job with the materials he puts out.

I'd buy the latter in a second and not care one whit about the former.

If I dislike someone's attitude or opinion and it comes out in their products, then I won't buy the products.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And, the thing is, I've seen you politely discuss your product when such issues were raised. Presenting the arguement in such a manner that it's mostly the opposite of how you actually act (you don't generally confront criticism of your product as just internet commando work) is not exactly helpful. From what I've seen of your posting, you have a thick skin for questions of your own work, but you get defensive about other peoples work, rising to defend them in ways you don't act when it's your own product...

Well, that only makes sense. There is always the concern to step lightly when you are talking about your own work.

Speaking for myself, though, I don't think my professional image here is ever really in question. My general asshattery/bastardry tends to be expressed in threads that have nothing to do with my work, or even gaming in general (though I can think of other publishers who could list exceptions).

Some might say that having my company icon next to my name means that every post I make here is a reflection on my professional image, and they are largely correct. That's sort of what I mean when I say that folks are really talking about general asshattery, though. There's the image you project as a publisher, in threads related to the industry or about your work; and then there's just your image, in general, despite the fact that you happen to be a professional.

And I don't think it is a stretch to say that I have driven off more folks here just ranting about general topics than I ever have in any "official" capacity. I can think of at least one person who's told me he won't buy my products because of an intemperate remark I made about France.

Which is really a shame. My degree in French clearly isn't going to do me any damn good. Thank God I have this Technical Writing thing to fall back on.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

As long as there are more things I'm interested in that my budget will handle, things like who posts where (and what they say) are going to have some small impact on my buying. But honestly, I am more likely to be impacted by who I've actually met. For example, I sat next to Monte for a while when I worked at WotC. Nicest guy you could ever meet. Left me in charge of Moltar (a giant plastic monster) when he left WotC. As simple a gesture as that was, I remember it five years later. When he started releasing pdfs, I was front-and-center buying them. Similarly, Sean K Reynolds was nothing but nice to me, as were JD Wiker, Rich Baker, Rich Redmond, Steve Miller, John Rateliff, Chris Pramas...

My point is, I condier a lot of these folks friends and the rest as friendly. If their names appear on a book and I notice, I'm gonna pick it up over a similar product. And since they're all great writers, I keep getting stuff they do. But if they started producing products that didn't match my needs, I'd regretfully stop. (Hasn't happened yet, though.)

On the other hand, I've seen how people like GMS handle the slings and arrows of outrageous "fans," and that has put them on my first-look list as well. Now, if GMS was involved in a book I had no interest in, his posting somewhere would have no impact on my buying habits. But since the books always seem to cover interesting topics, and have been original and well-written to date, I continue to get them.

And while I first picked up a Phil Reed pdf because of comments here, I'd have noticed one of his many, many releases by now and discovered the rest of the lines on my own.

So, while internet activity can get you my buck in a marginal case, or bring you to my attention initially, overall it has little impact on my long-term buying habits. Only someone who is small enough I wouldn't notice them any other way is likely to get a big benefit from posting here. My bet is that the bigger your sales, the less you get a boost from posting anyplace in particular.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman

 

[Darrin Drader]

As both writer and customer, in two words, not usually. There are one or two writers/publishers who have torqued me off from time to time, but I still buy their products when they put out something I find interesting. On the other hand, I like to see industry folk who put forth their true opinions on things rather than sugar coating it. For that reason, I will never shy away from a product by Sean K. Reynolds or GM Skarka. Speaking of SKR, just finished a project with him and for what its worth, he is a pleasure to work with. By the same token, I tend to be honest and blunt in my posts. I've also butted heads with a couple people here, and I know that at least one person here actively hates me (yeah, you know who you are, and I haven't forgotten).

I guess that the only way a person's online personality could possibly convince me to not spend money on their products is not so much if they come across as rude, but if they come across as unintelligent, poorly educated, or boggoted. Fortunately that has only happened a couple of times, and that was a long time ago, and I don't think those people are publishing anymore.

 

[philreed]

My bet is that the bigger your sales, the less you get a boost from posting anyplace in particular.

Makes perfect sense. And as someone else mentioned, and for this same reason, PDF publishers probably have the most to gain/lose from participating on messageboards.

 

[mearls]

I've met Sean Reynolds and John Wick. They were courteous, respectful, and good people. Because I was courteous, respectful, and did my best to be a good person. They are the same way online, as long as you are courteous, respectful, and do you best to be a good person.

This is a very good point, one worth highlighting once again.

It depresses me how often designers write off the Internet. The whiners, the malcontents, the freakazoids, and the attention seekers can all make it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The Internet is a very useful tool for communication, and well thought out, reasonable, and intelligent debate on an RPG's merits is an enormous help when it comes to design and development. I've learned a lot about what works, and what doesn't, by listening in on conversations here and elsewhere.

The key is finding a nice middleground between adoration and hostility. There's a sweet spot where someone can tell you exactly what they find wrong with a design without turning it into a hateful rant fest. By the same token, endless adoration and praise are nice, but they don't necessarily help a designer's work.

On the other hand, I've seen plenty of instances where designers need to grow thicker skins. There are plenty of designers who simply don't want to see negative comments. If you look at reviews on EN World and rpg.net, the staggering majority are positive. Yet, to hear writers talk you'd think the Internet was filled with hatchet job reviews.

Personally, I find the Internet useful even with the loons and ranting wierdos. I cut my teeth on usenet, and the "nasty" stuff I've see here and on rpg.net is nothing compared to what I've seen in the alt. and rec.games hierarchy. The funniest thing is that of all the reviews I've read, the only one that I found insulting was one written by a pro designer.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Well, that only makes sense. There is always the concern to step lightly when you are talking about your own work.

Right, you've always been professional where your own products are concerned, from what I've seen. As another example, I wouldn't doubt if the more general RPG stuff you've posted (such as the thread about your adventure that floated around for a while) has contributed to a few sales of such a product.

Some might say that having my company icon next to my name means that every post I make here is a reflection on my professional image, and they are largely correct. That's sort of what I mean when I say that folks are really talking about general asshattery, though. There's the image you project as a publisher, in threads related to the industry or about your work; and then there's just your image, in general, despite the fact that you happen to be a professional.

You know, with me in particular, I have disabled both sig-lines and avatars. I'm not going to "boycott" a company based on a passing remark. It has to be asshattery of sufficient irritation that I look to see who they are and what company they work for/are. This also means they've brought their "position in the industry" into the discussion at some point.
You of course I know because I have all the Heroes of High Favor (for which my All Power Attack, All the Time half-orc barbarian thanks you. Where are gnomes though?), and I almost purchased Grim Tales, until I realized I'd never use it, and didn't want to spend the money for the book + PDF's... anyway, I've never had a problem with your representation of yourself and your work, but you have serious biases where other industry folk are concerned, and rise to their defense quite aggresively, too aggressively usually.

And I don't think it is a stretch to say that I have driven off more folks here just ranting about general topics than I ever have in any "official" capacity. I can think of at least one person who's told me he won't buy my products because of an intemperate remark I made about France.

Which is really a shame. My degree in French clearly isn't going to do me any damn good. Thank God I have this Technical Writing thing to fall back on.

I don't let someone's politics or such impact my decision to buy their products, nor their views on the French, unless it's actually part of the product. I've declined to buy some charitable works, because I didn't want to support the charity in question or a derivative for example, but I didn't boycot the company itself.

But, just as importantly, I don't use the threat of a boycott like some kind of hammer. I'd never try to "win" an arguement by screaming I'll never buy the Big Book of New Stuff. I'll just refuse to buy it, and tell others I know why. I'm sure there are plenty of customers that do likewise.

Basically, I don't think a publisher should be nice to win over the guy that's argueing with you, but as a poster mentioned above, how you act in that arguement may carry over into people that just watched it and never commented.

 

[malladin]

This is a fascinating thread.

Personally I don't think I choose to buy or not to buy things if I think someone is a complete [whatever]. I'm definately positively effected. If another publisher gave me a good review, I'd probably look into their products.

But that's as far as I think my impressions will take me. There's a lot of stuff out there, and I'm a fussy buyer. In terms of positive influence I don't think I'm influenced into actually buying something (although I did buy Morningstar when Joseph Goodman showed an interest in Etherscope, but that was more for research), but will take time to investigate products that I might not have otherwise looked at.

In terms of negative impressions, I think it matters less to me whether someone conducts themself in an appropriate manner than whether I agree with their opinions or not. I'm not going to want to buy a product by someone who aspouses political opinions I find distasteful, no matter how politely they were put, as I would be constantly considering the impact of those beliefs on their game. Different opinions on game stuff similarly turns me off, for the simple matter that their games will unlikely suit my gaming style. I could provide examples of both of these circumstances, but I won't name names as I'm making doubley sure I'm being polite.

Personally I quite like the real agressive bastards. John Wick is one person who has entertained me with his outbursts, and I much lament his leaving AEG and the mess they made of the fantastic 7th Sea RPG after he went. I also quite like Louis Porter, too (although he seems to have calmed down of late, but I get the impression he was once seen as "the enemy" by many on these boards). I particualrly enjoyed some of his posts on the RPG marketplace on his switch to D20. hat said, I've not bought anything John Wick has done since he left AEG and haven't bought anything other than Image Portfolios from Louis Porter...

I think the biggest problems are likely to come from being let down by a publisher than disagreements or personality clashes. For example, it shames me to say that a communication -up led to a demo event for Etherscope at my FLGS being advertised after I thought I'd cancelled it - I only got to know when I got an email thenext day from the store saying they had a store full of gamers waiting for me to turn up. I would have thought that this is much more likely to stop people buying my game than if I were abusive online. So now there is much work to be done to fix this, so I'd best get back to work .

Cheerio,

Ben

 

[Vocenoctum]

It depresses me how often designers write off the Internet. The whiners, the malcontents, the freakazoids, and the attention seekers can all make it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

There's a side of the internet, where people will say stuff they never would in person, simply because the internet gives them that measure of anonymity. There's also a side where people will treat others worse than they would in person, simply because they don't view them individually, but more as a large group of the first side.

I think that's the problem with a lot of company folks, unless you do something to distinguish yourself from the chaff, they don't see you as wheat.

On the other hand, I've seen plenty of instances where designers need to grow thicker skins. There are plenty of designers who simply don't want to see negative comments. If you look at reviews on EN World and rpg.net, the staggering majority are positive. Yet, to hear writers talk you'd think the Internet was filled with hatchet job reviews.

I think there's also a large measure of the personal nature of an RPG business. When you criticize the work, you're not just criticizing that piece, but also the writer, the company and anyone peripherally related. "I didn't like the feats in X" "well, I drew the pictures for X, and you don't know what you're talking about!" level of debate.

I also think web forums such as this accentuate the cliqueish nature of people.

Personally, I find the Internet useful even with the loons and ranting wierdos. I cut my teeth on usenet, and the "nasty" stuff I've see here and on rpg.net is nothing compared to what I've seen in the alt. and rec.games hierarchy. The funniest thing is that of all the reviews I've read, the only one that I found insulting was one written by a pro designer.

I started with firearm forums. They don't just call you names, they provide pictures with the name-calling. But, company representatives don't do that, and small-gunsmiths can lose a lot of business by being too over the top. As I said in the other thread though, if you don't gain customers by either being rude or being polite, why not be polite as a matter of course?
(and I phrase it like that, simply because I think there are companies that gain by being rude, and seem sometimes to have built their marketing plan around such abrasiveness. In the long run, I think it's a bad decision, once you run out of addictive ink for your pages, the customer will judge you on what they've seen.)