Does a Quickened Spell have a Somatic component?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And yet, somewhere I read differently and it's killing me trying to remember where.. Hmmm...

Hrm. Are you thinking, perhaps, of the flavor text aids in the DMG for combat actions?

I believe the "suggested description" for casting a quickened spell is something like, "... suddenly appears to concentrate, and X happens."

 

[Hypersmurf]

A scroll cannot be quickened. I'd have to find out the FAQ on that one, but I know it is there. This is because using a scroll is an activate item action and not a casting spell action.

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The casting time of a Quickened Fireball is one free action. The item description for 'scroll' does not 'specifically state otherwise'; therefore the time required to activate the same power in a scroll is 'one free action'.

Of course, it takes longer than that to actually retrieve the scroll from your pack...

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Of course, it takes longer than that to actually retrieve the scroll from your pack...

Masterwork scroll pouches. Love 'em!

 

[irdeggman]

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The casting time of a Quickened Fireball is one free action. The item description for 'scroll' does not 'specifically state otherwise'; therefore the time required to activate the same power in a scroll is 'one free action'.

Of course, it takes longer than that to actually retrieve the scroll from your pack...

-Hyp.

You know that you are misreading this right?

However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item Which means that the time it takes to cast the spell is the time it takes to activate the power in an item. That is the time it takes to activate the item and not that the time it takes to activate the item changes based on the the castign time of the spell. See the text below to see if it helps clear up where I'm coming from on this.

DMG pg 238 “Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll.”

DMG pg 213 “Spell Completion: . . . .Activating a spell completion item is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity exactly like casting a spell does.”

The description for using magic items specifies (DMG pg 213) “Activating a magic item is standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.”

Note that under the following listings it lists the activation time as a standard action;

Spell completion (includes scrolls)
Spell trigger (includes wands)
Command Word (includes boots that aren't use-activated)


The effect of the spell is not done until after the item is activated. Quicken Spell affects the actual casting of the spell vice its effects. IMO metamagic scrolls can be made, e.g. maximize spell, enlarge spell, etc. since the spell's effects are altered but not Quicken Spell. This is similar as to why a spontaneous caster can not cast a Quickened Spell, unless they have a feat that allows them to memorize the spell instead of spontaneously casting it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The description for using magic items specifies (DMG pg 213) “Activating a magic item is standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.”

That's right.

Note that under the following listings it lists the activation time as a standard action;

Spell completion (includes scrolls)
Spell trigger (includes wands)
Command Word (includes boots that aren't use-activated)

Which aren't item descriptions.

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description states otherwise." This agrees with the activation method description for spell completion, spell trigger, and command word.

"However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The casting time of a Quickened fireball is a free action, which is therefore the time required to activate the same power in a scroll, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. The item description doesn't.

"However" means "But here's an exception to that". Activating a magic item is a standard action... unless it's a spell, in which case activating it is the casting time of the spell. A free action, in the case of a Quickened fireball.

The effect of the spell is not done until after the item is activated.

That's right. And the activation time is a free action.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

The casting time of a Quickened fireball is a free action, which is therefore the time required to activate the same power in a scroll, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. The item description doesn't.

"However" means "But here's an exception to that". Activating a magic item is a standard action... unless it's a spell, in which case activating it is the casting time of the spell. A free action, in the case of a Quickened fireball.



That's right. And the activation time is a free action.

-Hyp.

No - you are reading it wrong still.

What the text is saying is that spells have varying casting times (full round actions, 1 round casting times, standard action, free (for quickened spell). And that this time is now the time it takes to activate the power in the item. That is unless the specific item states otherwise (which for scrolls it does not - it fact scrolls are specifically listed under spell completion items). These take a standard action. What this essentially does is for spells like summon monster (1 round casting time) the scroll makes it a standard action since the spell has been pre-cast except for the reading from the scroll (also the materials have been used in inscribing the scroll).

What I'm saying is that the time it takes to activate the item determines the casting time of the spell and not vice versa. This interpretation is consistent with the texts I have quoted while the contrary is not.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What I'm saying is that the time it takes to activate the item determines the casting time of the spell and not vice versa.

Oh, I see what you mean.

But now look at Wands.

"Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)"

However, you're saying that the general text means that the casting time of the spell changes to a standard action (the activation time of a spell trigger item), so in no case does the spell being cast have a longer casting time than one action.

So while the item description states that it takes longer if the spell has a longer casting time... by your reading, the spell never does.

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

Yep. With my compatriot all the way.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I make a distinction between those metamagic which modify the way a spell is cast (quicken/still/silent) and those which modify the effect of the spell (extend/enlarge/empower/maximise etc). I don't allow the former metamagics to be applied to magic items such as scrolls and wands while I do allow the former.

It isn't a RAW distinction of course, but I find it a helpful clarification. It would be nice to think that in the future the first ones become general feats like eschew magic so that sorcerers could use them freely (bringing all the component & casting modification metamagics under one roof as it were), while the latter ones could remain restricted to full actions.

Cheers

 

[irdeggman]

It says that the casting time of the spell is the same as the time to activate the item. It does not say that the time to activate the item is the same as casting the spell. That is the item activation time is not dependent on the spell inside the item.

However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.