Does a SRD or OGC "Dire" template exist?

[Ashardalon]

The swarm template's in the SRD, innit?

No, because there is no swarm template. And since swarms are always tiny or smaller, that might be a good idea - White Dragon Wyrmling swarms, anyone?

Of course, Swarm traits are in the SRD.

 

[Conaill]

Re: Awakened "template"

Wouldn't this just be:

"3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). " for animals.

and:

"characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s." for plants.

Yeah, that would be simple, wouldn't it? Except that right *now*, there are really zero guidelines regarding things like exactly what benefits the Awakened critter gets from those +2HD. Do you just add the hp and that's it? Do you also add feats and skills, like pretty much any other occasion where you gain HD? Are these "advancement" HD for the base animal, so it may go up in size? And what is the CR and LA for this template?

Seems like if they actually *had* made it a template, they would have made sure to clear up a lot of those issues...

 

[DarkMaster]

Yeah, that would be simple, wouldn't it? Except that right *now*, there are really zero guidelines regarding things like exactly what benefits the Awakened critter gets from those +2HD. Do you just add the hp and that's it? Do you also add feats and skills, like pretty much any other occasion where you gain HD? Are these "advancement" HD for the base animal, so it may go up in size? And what is the CR and LA for this template?

I always consider extra HD as advancement HD. Only case I would do otherwise is if it was specifically stated in the text not to do so.

 

[jgsugden]

Yep- like Taluron said. There is a Dire template in the Tome of Horrors (and the 3.5 update to said template is/was on the NG website, if ya can't find it let me know and I'll dig it up).

EDIT: Oh, and it's 100% OGC (just like the rest of Tome).

It is here: http://www.necromancergames.com/prod_support.html

This is a fine tool, but it doesn't always lead to the best results. I thoroughly suggest figuring out what you want to create, putting it together by following the advancement rules in the MM and advancing the normal animal and then tossing a few extra ability score adjustments or minor ability adjustments to get the result you want. You'll end up with better results.

 

[Conaill]

I always consider extra HD as advancement HD. Only case I would do otherwise is if it was specifically stated in the text not to do so.

One of the precedents on this issue is the extra HD that animal companions and mounts get. For those, the FAQ clarifies that they do *not* get size increases:

An animal companion doesn t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.

And then of course there's the issue of what happens when you Awaken an animal which doesn't *have* an advancement entry...

 

[DarkMaster]

One of the precedents on this issue is the extra HD that animal companions and mounts get. For those, the FAQ clarifies that they do *not* get size increases:



And then of course there's the issue of what happens when you Awaken an animal which doesn't *have* an advancement entry...

First question I have is why awakening would provide an animal with more HD. I don't see why the 1/4D8 2HP squirel would gain all of a sudden 9 HP by awakening. 11HP squirel is as tough as the average 1st level fighter.

Even if the animal has no entry you can figure it out easily with the various table
usually animals use the following, D8 for advencement, Attack as cleric, Good save Fort, Ref and sometimes Will)

 

[Conaill]

Why +2HD? Beats me... I guess they wanted to make the awakened animal extra "special", in the same sense that animal companions and familiars are special too: those gain additional HD or hp as well.

One common mistake I've seen people make is to switch the HD to d10's, because of the switch to the magical beast (augmented animal) type. By default, the awakened animal would keep it's original HD size, and attack, save and skill progression: "A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

I've heard people argue that the +2 HD are "extra HD" or "bonus HD", and not real HD with all the usual increases in BAB, saves, skills and feats. I don't see anything in the rules that would support such a position. Then again, I also didn't see anything in the rules that would keep animal companions from gaining size increases...

 

[Grazzt]

It is here: http://www.necromancergames.com/prod_support.html

This is a fine tool, but it doesn't always lead to the best results. I thoroughly suggest figuring out what you want to create, putting it together by following the advancement rules in the MM and advancing the normal animal and then tossing a few extra ability score adjustments or minor ability adjustments to get the result you want. You'll end up with better results.

Maybe not better results, but different yes. Unfortunately there is no set formula for dire animals (we reverse engineered them back in 3e a lot of different ways and whilst a few showed a pattern, it was never really consistent at all). Erica did do a really good job figuring out stuff for the template, it just wasn't as easy as say dragons (where there is a set pattern on HD, AC, SR, ability scores, etc...and figuring out where to insert new dragons into the balance is easy).

 

[Saeviomagy]

Maybe not better results, but different yes. Unfortunately there is no set formula for dire animals (we reverse engineered them back in 3e a lot of different ways and whilst a few showed a pattern, it was never really consistent at all). Erica did do a really good job figuring out stuff for the template, it just wasn't as easy as say dragons (where there is a set pattern on HD, AC, SR, ability scores, etc...and figuring out where to insert new dragons into the balance is easy).

Well, all you've really got to do is look at the difference between an ape and a dire ape (1 hd, 1pt natural armour, 1pt strength - nearly identical to an ape advanced a single hit die), and the difference between a tiger and a dire tiger(10hd, 3 pts natural armour, 4pts strength, far, far inferior to a 16hd advanced tiger, which would be huge for starters)... There isn't really a way to produce a template for them, they're so radically different.

And don't even think about weasels and dire weasels... They're so different it's not funny.

No, because there is no swarm template. And since swarms are always tiny or smaller, that might be a good idea - White Dragon Wyrmling swarms, anyone?

If I want one, I want to be able to make one. Why not a template? Far superior to just giving stats for the existing ones...

 

[MarauderX]

Must... resist... urge... to create... dire... zoo... in my... homebrew...

Ah, what the heck, the PCs will never find it... until they don't want to find it...

Has anyone compiled a good list of 'templated' critters? Not just for dire, but say for zombie, skeleton, lich, swarm, etc.?