Does a SRD or OGC "Dire" template exist?

[Grazzt]

Well, all you've really got to do is look at the difference between an ape and a dire ape (1 hd, 1pt natural armour, 1pt strength - nearly identical to an ape advanced a single hit die), and the difference between a tiger and a dire tiger(10hd, 3 pts natural armour, 4pts strength, far, far inferior to a 16hd advanced tiger, which would be huge for starters)... There isn't really a way to produce a template for them, they're so radically different.

Yep- exactly. I mean, you can produce a template (we did obviously), and it works, but you won't be able to recreate the animals in the MM with it is all. You can create your own dire stuff that compares, but yeah, using the template won't get you what's in the MM (like you said above and I said above...there is no correllation or formula between the normal and dire versions of animals).

And don't even think about weasels and dire weasels... They're so different it's not funny.

Heh- yep. Not funny at all.

 

[Conaill]

If I want one, I want to be able to make one. Why not a template? Far superior to just giving stats for the existing ones...

I agree. Note that there's some peculiarities regarading the existing swarms in the SRD. For example, a rat swarm is *supposed* to consist of a whopping 300 rats ("A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures."), which would be a CR 11. Except the Rat Swarm is CR 2, enough for only about 11 rats. In a 10'x10' space, that's still about 3 rats per square. 300 rats would be 75 rats per square, or 3 rats per square foot!

Bat Swarm: 13 hp, CR 2, supposed to be 5000(!) bats
Bat: 1 hp, CR 1/10 -> 14 bats in a swarm?

Centipede Swarm: 31 hp, CR4, 1500 Diminutive Centipedes
Tiny Monstrous Centipede: 1 hp, CR 1/8
Diminutive Monstrous Centipede: CR 1/16? -> 45 centipedes in a swarm?

Rat Swarm: 13 hp, CR 2, 300 rats
Rat: 1 hp, CR 1/8 -> 11 rats in a swarm?

Spider Swarm: 9 hp, CR 1, 1500 Diminutive Spiders
Tiny Monstrous Spider: 2 hp, CR 1/4
Diminutive Monstrous Spider: CR 1/8? -> 8 spiders in a swarm?


None of these are really consistent with the supposed number of creatures in a swarm. In each case, treating them as that many individual creatures would tend to make for a *much* more difficult encounter.

 

[Saeviomagy]

None of these are really consistent with the supposed number of creatures in a swarm. In each case, treating them as that many individual creatures would tend to make for a *much* more difficult encounter.

And a much more tedious encounter. Swarms are there to handle a vast number of minor creatures in one easy-to-use bundle.

And dammit - I want swarm rules for anything I can imagine coming in a huge, combat-ineffective group! For now I guess I'll settle for things that are diminutive or tiny. I'd LIKE rules for something like a zombie swarm...

 

[Grazzt]

And dammit - I want swarm rules for anything I can imagine coming in a huge, combat-ineffective group! For now I guess I'll settle for things that are diminutive or tiny. I'd LIKE rules for something like a zombie swarm...

Wouldn't such a swarm fall under skirmish rules or whatever WotC did in the Mini's Handbook?

 

[francisca]

Wouldn't such a swarm fall under skirmish rules or whatever WotC did in the Mini's Handbook?

Maybe, but it doesn't help us who are totally uninterested in the D&D Miniatures game.

 

[Grazzt]

Maybe, but it doesn't help us who are totally uninterested in the D&D Miniatures game.

Count me among that group too. I have no interest in Miniatures: The Gathering either.

 

[drnuncheon]

Note that there's some pecualiarities reagrading the existing swarms in the SRD. For example, a rat swarm is *supposed* to consist of a whopping 300 rats, which would be a CR 11. Except the Rat Swarm is CR 2, enough for only about 11 rats.

Note that the designers have repeatedly said that the CR/EL rules get less and less accurate by the timeyou get over a dozen or so monsters. Do you really think that 300 rats is a challenge for even a 5th level party, let alone an 11th? One fireball and your rat problem is over - that isn't even close to 25% of your resources.

And dammit - I want swarm rules for anything I can imagine coming in a huge, combat-ineffective group! For now I guess I'll settle for things that are diminutive or tiny. I'd LIKE rules for something like a zombie swarm...

FFG's Monster's Handbook has swarm rules in their humanoids section.

One of the AEG books - Mercenaries or Empire, maybe? - has 'mob' rules for handling large groups of untrained fighters.

I think either of those would be something close to what you're looking for, and Monster's Handbook should be in any DM's arsenal.

J

 

[Conaill]

Note that the designers have repeatedly said that the CR/EL rules get less and less accurate by the timeyou get over a dozen or so monsters. Do you really think that 300 rats is a challenge for even a 5th level party, let alone an 11th? One fireball and your rat problem is over - that isn't even close to 25% of your resources.

Not to mention little details like the fact that standard bats don't actually *have* an attack, so 5000 of them wouldn't do much more than get your hair *really* messed up (and covering the party in - ahem - "fireball material component", of course).

Anybody feel like posting a brief synopsis of the Swarm rules in the Monster's Handbook?

 

[Arnwyn]

Any help would be appreciated. I need guidance to create a dire version of an animal that will be a base animal for a lycanthrope.

Yes, there is - as noted previously, the OGC "Dire" template is found in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors, and the 3.5 update is at their website.

By far, I would recommend using this to create a dire creature, as opposed to any other method.

 

[Conaill]

I need guidance to create a dire version of an animal that will be a base animal for a lycanthrope.

Now, would that be an "X were dire Y", a "dire X were Y", or even a "dire (X were Y)"?