D&D 5E Does anyone DIE in D&D Next: Stabilization Problems

[ccooke]

I think the rules for dying are fine. DC 10 may sound easy, but for a typical person, that's a coin toss. They're as likely to waste their turn and accomplish nothing as they are to stabilize their friend. The person who is administering first aid is taking a turn out of the battle that could have been used to deal damage or contribute to victory in some other way. I've also found the death saving throws to be much less forgiving than 3e's bleed for 1 hp per round rule.

The only problem I have is with spare the dying. It's too easy to create a death yo-yo where characters pop up to life, get knocked back down, and pop back to life again. I think the best solution is to simply change that cantrip so that it only automatically stabilizes the target rather than healing them 1 hp.

I haven't seen any issues with the death and dying rules myself (I've not had any deaths, but I've seen a lot more *very narrowly* avoided deaths than in 3e or 4e. It definitely promotes drama), however if I was seeing a problem with this I'd probably say that repeat (successful) castings of Spare the Dying on a single target add a cumulative death saving throw penalty. So you're fine the first time it gets you up. The second time it gets you up, if you're dropped to 0 hit points you start on one death saving throw failed. Thus you die instantly if you're dropped to 0hp the fifth time (assuming StD is what gets you up each of the previous four times).

For my games, though, I love the way the dying rules actually allow me to have the monsters act more believably.

In 3e (and to a lesser extent 4e), having a monster strike a downed PC is basically instant death for them. Since my groups don't go for high churn, we've all avoided making monsters do that.

In 5e, if the monster *would* attack a downed character, I'll do it. The PC can take a hit, and instead of it meaning the PC just dies, the rest of the party know that they need to do something about the situation *immediately*. It's a general trend in the 5e rules that I like a lot: There's a lot of relaxation of the rules in ways that facilitate playing a role. I had some fun the weekend before last with two members of the party on 0hp inside a stinking cloud. Every able member of the party immediately went to gank the caster so that the cloud would dissipate before it killed the party cleric and fighter. Made for some nice combat *and* nice motivation.

 

[Libramarian]

Spare the Dying is way overpowered for a cantrip IMO.

I think the classic dungeoncrawl needs significant game-mechanical risk in order to work correctly.

I don't think it needs to be character obliteration. I like the idea of losing all the XP you've gained so far on an adventure if you drop and need to be stabilized.

 

[Johnny Champion]

Last night we had a particularly tough encounter where Spare the Dying allowed the yo-yo effect to occur for several characters for as many as 4 rounds! Tungsten is down, now up, back down, now up...though it saved the PC from death, it gave us all pause. It either needs adjustments or every party needs a cleric with this capability.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Is that based on actual play, Libramarian? We've had characters die, even when this spell was in play.

Compare it with other cantrips:
* attack cantrips, at range, have scaling dice;
* utility cantrips (thaumaturgy etc.) have multiple uses, unlimited, again at range
* illusion is unlimited in its possibilities
* guidance/resistance grant a +1 to any roll within the next ten rounds.

Plus, as a first-level cleric spell, Cure Wounds heals 2d8+2 (minimum 4 points, average 11).

Spare the Dying is a limited form of Cure Wounds,
* capable of healing a single point
* only on characters with zero hit points
* at touch range (like Cure Wounds)
* it requires the permanent investment of one of two cantrip slots belonging to the caster

The only thing that is in its comparative favour is its ability to be used as a swift action, which does prevent you using any other spells that round.

It's certainly not overpowered.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Johnny Champion:

did Tungsten try to heal himself, or withdraw from battle? Or did he just hope he wouldn't get hit each of the four times?

 

[Sadras]

Personally I would ban that cantrip in my campaign similarly like I did with the Fly spell. If you believe its overpowered (for the type of campaign you are running), can be abused and/or breaks your game-immersion remove it from the available list of options or alter it to make it more acceptable.
Falling Icicle had a great suggestion in altering it (which I might steal) - apparently I need to spread the XP around before I can give him again.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I've talked about this a little with my group. If DDN winds up looking like the November packet, I think for us the right solution will be a critical debuff applied to characters when they reach 0 hp. Like:

Very, Very Bloodied: Your guts are falling out.
Effect: You must remain prone, and must spend your move action holding your guts in.
Cure: a DC 10 heal check made during a long rest, or a DC 20 heal check made during a short rest. Another character may make the check on your behalf, but only one character may attempt it per rest, and that character does not benefit from the rest.

This way PCs can still crawl away after they receive their healing, but are unlikely to contribute directly to the fight.

We're already doing something like this for our 2E game in the form of a "death's door" house rule, so this should make sure everything continues smoothly if we make the switch.

This is a good example, I think, of what I want from DDN--I want it to be really easy to house rule, with playstyle-determining rules not thoroughly baked into the PHB.

 

[Dausuul]

I prefer it as it is, frankly.

The "death yo-yo" is only an artefact of individual play styles; that's not a problem with the game. It's narrative not mechanics. The mechanics are fine. The cantrip heals 1 hp only to characters who are at zero hit points, at range touch. Your alternative makes it a weaker spell, and means that the spell recipient is still unable to remove herself from immediate danger, or heal herself.

If the mechanics push players in the direction of narrative-wrecking behavior, that's a problem with the mechanics as far as I'm concerned. I saw this in 4E where healers would deliberately save their abilities until a PC went to zero hit points, because that gave them the most bang for their healing buck.

Because I keep a very tight rein on resurrection magic--you typically need a limited-use artifact to raise the dead in my games--I'm okay with D&D not being super-deadly. I dislike the yo-yo effect, and like dd.stevenson, I will probably look at some kind of lasting penalty for going to zero hit points (it would be nice if this were an included optional rule).

 

[Johnny Champion]

Johnny Champion:

did Tungsten try to heal himself, or withdraw from battle? Or did he just hope he wouldn't get hit each of the four times?

He is a fighter and was engaged with creatures around him. Party was out of potions and healing spells. Tungsten went down gloriously, then 'Spared' by the cleric, I put him at Disadvantage, got hit again and fell...this continued. I know this was an unusally tough encounter, the party was close to being wiped out entirely, but since he was a fighter with high hit points, no single blow could ever kill him outright, and with a swift action of 'Spare', he was in this limbo.

 

[GMMichael]

I still prefer dead at zero.

I have an alternative: "mostly" dead at zero.