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D&D 5E Does anyone else feel like the action economy and the way actions work in general in 5e both just suck?

I readily conceded that mostly this is true - people have their comfort zones and they like to stay in them. But then they had to venture something new when they first played D&D... so it is an interesting little circle of thought.

The point is that the basic conceit isn't new anymore. There is a much larger difference between non-RPG forms of entertainment and D&D 5e than between D&D 5e and 13th Age. Personally speaking, I'd be a thousand times more likely to join a different RPG if it promised to be nothing at all like hacking your way through a dungeon.

umm yeah... Not gonna happen - ever.

I don't think you can ever really say "never." Various post-apocalyptic fantasies were really hot during the 00s and early teens (Hunger Games, Fallout, etc), but nobody really had the right tabletop game idea to take advantage of the trend.
 

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One thing I will note - is that good GM's never really have a problem finding players.
O_O

...wat?

Ok. Admittedly ive never had a hard time finding players and my group considers me a great dm. Both of these have assuredly helped with retention.

But...no. No this isnt correct. There are a LOT of good gms (dms included) out there that do not have an easy time finding people.

If you understand the complexities of modern society and the stifling schedule constraints and busy work that modern people typically have, you very quickly come to understand by extension that no matter who you are a large part of finding people to play with easily is entirely luck. Sure how good you are, how easily you make friemds, and what you do to make yourself available can all help but a lot of it is luck. Starting at birth with what nation you are born with and everything leading up to where you are now. It can be hard. Ive seen dms who run into this but you dont even need personal examples to reason out the obvious. Modern schedules are rarely cooperative.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
O_O

...wat?

Ok. Admittedly ive never had a hard time finding players and my group considers me a great dm. Both of these have assuredly helped with retention.

But...no. No this isnt correct. There are a LOT of good gms (dms included) out there that do not have an easy time finding people.

If you understand the complexities of modern society and the stifling schedule constraints and busy work that modern people typically have, you very quickly come to understand by extension that no matter who you are a large part of finding people to play with easily is entirely luck. Sure how good you are, how easily you make friemds, and what you do to make yourself available can all help but a lot of it is luck. Starting at birth with what nation you are born with and everything leading up to where you are now. It can be hard. Ive seen dms who run into this but you dont even need personal examples to reason out the obvious. Modern schedules are rarely cooperative.
Your rght, but I think that he meant to say "Any gm can run AL games at your nearby FLGS for more random strangers who may or may not be a good fit for an ongoing game & you might be wanting the wrong things from 5e if that's not good enough". Dunno, just a guess
 

Jaeger

That someone better
..
If you understand the complexities of modern society and the stifling schedule constraints and busy work that modern people typically have,...

Wat?

People in first world countries have never had more leisure time nor the money to be able to indulge in it.

"Modern people" are just really bad at prioritizing what they will commit to with their time.

And yeah I stand by my statement. I did not say it would be easy!

Order of magnitude more people looking to play than GM.

No they won't fall out of the sky to form the perfect group. You'll have to put the work in (Heaven forbid!). Do the leg work, and be willing to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Any good GM can get a group - just a matter of time and effort.

Unless of course through sheer bad luck you live in some RPG dead Zone.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, I agree for the most part. IMO it isn't even so much about having interesting abilities as it is about simply giving them things by default it makes sense for them to have. Sure, as DM I can "run it" however I want, but having those things baked in would have been nice.

It is one of my biggest hang-ups about 5E: when it gets to the point you have so many house-rules, etc. that people are telling you to just make your own game--I get disappointed. There are so many things that seem out of whack to me I feel like 5E was only half finished before it was released. :(
They keep telling us its a skeleton but I cannot find the ligatures to properly connect cool muscles too.
 

TheSword

Legend
One thing I will note - is that good GM's never really have a problem finding players.

So if you are willing to run, you can do pretty much any system you want. The trick is getting a group where 2-3 people rotate being GM and running full campaigns... I'm lucky that way.

But if I move away from my current group - I'm not worried about forming another - I know I'll just have to be exclusive GM for a bit.

.

However I set the bar a little higher than that. I’d like to find good players. Not just anyone with a pulse.
 

TheSword

Legend
Simple is fine. But if you want a system to be modular then you have to ensure that space is designed into it for the more complex actions. This is part of the issue. We were promised DnD next would be modular, and it really wasn't. There was little real thought to how the more complex elements could be added into the simple. See the discussion of how flanking rules if used are now overpowered (and people in 4E were already mocking the whole 'conga' line of doom element of flanking).

Part of the issue with 5E in this regard is that while the core rules for resolution and combat are very simple. The whole class system is built on lots of exception based spells, powers and abilities. This means you really need to be aware of interactions from changing rules. For example, one DM wanted to make critis more powerful, but I had to warn him, that this would mean a big buff to my paladin, who was already feeling somewhat OP as we weren't really getting in enough combats per long rest.

I don't want to oversell it. It's not that difficult to play around with an houserule 5e. But it's not B/X or 13th Age or Castles and Crusades either.

These are real corner case issues that can be fixed by common senses and don’t apply at the majority of tables.

In what way can 5e not be expanded upon. It is a paired down d20 system.

  • additional monster abilities
  • revised classes
  • new classes
  • revising advantage which methods of ‘spending’ advantage to get additional results.
  • new spell systems.
  • new feats
  • alternative proficiency systems.

There are so many many ways that 5e could be developed in time...if... and this is a big if... If there was a market for it beyond, ultra-committed forum posters.

Saying that 5e isn’t modular because of critical hits affecting paladins is a really patchy argument.
 

Saying that 5e isn’t modular because of critical hits affecting paladins is a really patchy argument.

Look this is a completely ridiculous mischaracterisation of my post. I have to admit I've been considering a few times lately throwing up my hands and just giving up posting entirely due to that fact that people can't seem to be able to follow the difference between:
a) a point expressing a particular argument.
and
b) an example presenting a singular instance to help illustrate that general argument.

Or possibly because people just aren't actually reading posts properly before replying.

Generally the point precedes the example. The example is not generally proof of the point but rather an illustration. Generally, it will be indicated clearly if the example is considered strong enough to prove the point entirely on it's own. More often the point of the example is to help ensure the reader is able to grasp the point and thus avoid miscommunication.

This is standard communication.
To put things the other way and have the example somehow become the point either shows complete failure of comprehension or careless reading.

So let's go clearly through what was said.
But if you want a system to be modular then you have to ensure that space is designed into it for the more complex actions.
This is the basic topic sentence of paragraph 1 - it introuduces the overall argument - that - for a system to succeed at being modular it's insufficient for it to just be simple - some thought has to be put in to how it can be expanded for complexity. I then stated that 5E didn't do this. Now my example here, might be mistaken by someone who hasn't followed the context of discussion in this and other threads as being intended my me to be sole and sufficient proof for that point. (Although the demands of charitable reading would tend to suggest that someone making this interpretation should check before so assuming such). In any case. That isn't what happened here.

I then went on to make the following argument at the beginning of the next paragraph:

Part of the issue with 5E in this regard is that while the core rules for resolution and combat are very simple. The whole class system is built on lots of exception based spells, powers and abilities. This means you really need to be aware of interactions from changing rules.

Note this is a general point. But of course, because it is general point I'm assuming the reader might be thinking "like what?" But note that the whole of the argument is basically in this section. It's fairly simple - change one thing and it may interfere with class abilities. What follows is a singular example to illustrate the basic point. I find it really hard to see how anyone could read it as being intended to solely prove that point on it's own. There is a clear progression here from the general to the particular with the clear implication that I at least intend the general point to apply in more circumstances then just the given example.

It this necessarily a slam dunk? No. One thing I could anticipate is that a reader may feel that while I imply there are multiple instances of the situation I describe, that in fact there are not. In that case, I might expect someone would ask for more examples (many of which have been brought up already by me and others in recent threads, perhaps even this one, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a reader to be aware of them).

Finally, the argument that you attribute to me, that a single instance affecting a single class is actually the cause of the a general issue (Maybe that's not what you meant but that's basically what you said, and what you attributed to me - so the onus is on you when trying to paraphrase others' arguments not to be so careless and slipshod) is actually a really stupid argument.

Now the basic rules of charitable reading (which I would consider to be a basic ethical responsibility of anyone engaged in discussion) demand that if you believe that someone is making a really stupid argument that you in fact first check whether you have actually misunderstood the person in question (which can be achieved by asking a simple question).
 
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atanakar

Hero
I'm perfectly content with 5e. Never had this much fun dming D&D once AD&D2e. 3e and 4e left me very tired after each session. I thought I was getting to old to dm. The 5e additional rules and optional rule of the dmg let met customize the game to the format a prefer. More gritty, with less options but without becoming unviable for characters.

Also, it is important the select the right rpg for the experience you want to have at your table. I will soon start an old school hex crawl campaign. After much research I selected Forbidden Lands by Free League because the system was designed specifically for that.

If you try to play tennis on a badminton court the problem is you, not the game. ;-)
 

TheSword

Legend
Look this is a completely ridiculous mischaracterisation of my post. I have to admit I've been considering a few times lately throwing up my hands and just giving up posting entirely due to that fact that people can't seem to be able to follow the difference between:
a) a point expressing a particular argument.
and
b) an example presenting a singular instance to help illustrate that general argument.

Or possibly because people just aren't actually reading posts properly before replying.

Generally the point precedes the example. The example is not generally proof of the point but rather an illustration. Generally, it will be indicated clearly if the example is considered strong enough to prove the point entirely on it's own. More often the point of the example is to help ensure the reader is able to grasp the point and thus avoid miscommunication.

This is standard communication.
To put things the other way and have the example somehow become the point either shows complete failure of comprehension or careless reading.

So let's go clearly through what was said.

This is the basic topic sentence of paragraph 1 - it introuduces the overall argument - that - for a system to succeed at being modular it's insufficient for it to just be simple - some thought has to be put in to how it can be expanded for complexity. I then stated that 5E didn't do this. Now my example here, might be mistaken by someone who hasn't followed the context of discussion in this and other threads as being intended my me to be sole and sufficient proof for that point. (Although the demands of charitable reading would tend to suggest that someone making this interpretation should check before so assuming such). In any case. That isn't what happened here.

I then went on to make the following argument at the beginning of the next paragraph:



Note this is a general point. But of course, because it is general point I'm assuming the reader might be thinking "like what?" But note that the whole of the argument is basically in this section. It's fairly simple - change one thing and it may interfere with class abilities. What follows is a singular example to illustrate the basic point. I find it really hard to see how anyone could read it as being intended to solely prove that point on it's own. There is a clear progression here from the general to the particular with the clear implication that I at least intend the general point to apply in more circumstances then just the given example.

It this necessarily a slam dunk? No. One thing I could anticipate is that a reader may feel that while I imply there are multiple instances of the situation I describe, that in fact there are not. In that case, I might expect someone would ask for more examples (many of which have been brought up already by me and others in recent threads, perhaps even this one, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a reader to be aware of them).

Finally, the argument that you attribute to me, that a single instance affecting a single class is actually the cause of the a general issue (Maybe that's not what you meant but that's basically what you said, and what you attributed to me - so the onus is on you when trying to paraphrase others' arguments not to be so careless and slipshod) is actually a really stupid argument.

Now the basic rules of charitable reading (which I would consider to be a basic ethical responsibility of anyone engaged in discussion) demand that if you believe that someone is making a really stupid argument that you in fact first check whether you have actually misunderstood the person in question (which can be achieved by asking a simple question).

Brevity is the soul of wit...

The suggestion that 5e isn’t modular (whatever you take that to mean) not only isn’t ‘slam dunked’ it isn’t even convincing.

The system is clearly modular - as evidenced by the many expansions released in its lifespan.

[Edited - rather than add a new post]
 

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