Does anyone else think D&D 4th edition should be more like 2nd edition

[wingsandsword]

To WotC's credit, the oAD&D & AD&D2e books, the BECM sets & the RC are available as legal PDFs without DRM for a very reasonable price. It'd still be nice for them to support the old games better (many are unhappy with the quality of the PDFs) or allow someone else to do so. (Although, perhaps the Hackmaster agreement prevents such.)

If you can find it, of find a friend who has it (eBay might be your friend here), the AD&D Core Rules 2.0 disc had the PHB & DMG, Monstrous Manual, Tome of Magic, all the Player's Option/DM's Option books, and about a dozen of the Complete Handbooks in .rtf format, you can reformat that however you want, and it's the same text as the books (and only a handful of the graphics, mostly ones that are needed to explain something). Combine that with all the 2e materials up for free & legal download at the WotC site and you could have all the AD&D 2e materials to play for a lifetime.

 

[Storm Raven]

I did however, like weapon speed rules. I know this puts me in a minority, but I would like to see them come back, even if as an optional rule.

How do you decide which weapons are fast and which ones are slow? Is a dagger faster than a spear? A dagger is smaller and lighter, but a spearman can stab a dagger armed opponent long before his adversary is even close to being able to swing. Is a short sword, which you can whip around because it is light, fast? Is it faster than a greatsword, which can be used to make a killing stroke by moving your hand six inches? Is a glaive, which requires a motion of four inches for a killing stroke, faster still? Weapon speeds never made any sense in the rules, and probably never will.

 

[Storm Raven]

And I don't think everything is bad I just don't like some stuff like ditching the martial arts system for OA and making the monk they only one who can fight unarmed.

This would make sense if it wasn't completely wrong. Anyone can fight unarmed. Monks are just better at it than most others.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think he meant monks are the only ones for whom unarmed combat is a viable combat option.

Which, to a certain point, I agree with.

While the D&D games have done a good job of simulating high-fantasy warriors and mages, in general, the high-fantasy martial artist is only feasibly represented by the Monk (and the Shaman from OA).

You simply can't construct a full-on cinematic/fantasy literature martial artist who is going to have nifty abilities, etc. without taking a level or two in Monk or OA Shaman.

That is why, when I was running 2Ed, I used a version of the HERO system martial arts conversion for "Level Based Systems" (as listed in The Ultimate Martial Artist sourcebook for HERO 4thEd). It listed all of the HERO system martial arts maneuvers with their D&D combat effects. With it, anyone could become a competent martial artist at least, even if he couldn't do all the 70' jumps and such. Sadly, there is no such conversion in the 5thEd version of the book.

Also, if you don't find the current list of "monk weapons" in D20 sourcebooks to be big enough for your liking, check out Palladium's Compendium of Weapons...

 

[Piratecat]

Truely, trolls do regenerate.

Gez, if you're only posting to make insulting comments, it's probably best not to. Posts like this tend to compound the problem by reducing the signal:noise ratio.

Thanks.

 

[RFisher]

Not likely for two reasons:

I agree it's unlikely.

First, supporting 1/2e will draw off support for current products which is financially stupid.

Actively supporting the PDF market of SVGames & RPGNow wouldn't be so different than WotC supporting D&D instead of scraping it completely to focus on their most profitable products.

Some fans might not like it, but it's a bad business decision and so won't happen.

Who wouldn't like WotC to be more supportive of prior editions? At most people would be indifferent to it. Anyone out there annoyed that the PDFs are currently available? Or the free classic downloads on the WotC site? These things are turning away customers?

(Pointless personal anecdote:) If WotC did support prior editions better, I would've bought a couple of 3e products since I play both. Since WotC doesn't care to fix the problem with the PDFs they are selling or to make my favorite edition available in PDF, despite having nearly every other prior edition available in PDF & despite the fact that fans have offerred to do all the work of creating the PDFs themselves for free & love of the game. Well, that disinclines me to spending money on any WotC products.

Bad business decision to support multiple games? I guess it's a bad business decision for WotC to continue to support D&D instead of focusing on their other games. I guess it's a bad business decision for SJGames, which has been making a decent living for its employees for 24 years & maybe knows a thing or two about good & bad business decisions, supports not only multiple games but multiple roleplaying games.

Hell, even with all of TSR's bad business decisions they did about the same thing when 2e was released too.

The last printing of the oAD&D Players Handbook was after the release of 2e. The real point, however, is that the post-2000 editions of D&D are really a different game than the pre-2000 editions. The 2e materials can be used with oD&D verbatim. (Ideally you end up with minimal adjustments, but you can actually get by using them verbatim.)

Second, the whole Open Gaming idea is based on a premise that too many systems dilute the RPG market too much. Going back and supporting previous editions of (A)D&D will run counter to that by adding more systems to the market.

Good point. (And an entirely separate can of worms.)

Still, they sell PDFs of the Holmes Basic Set, the Mentzer box sets, the RC, the oAD&D core books, the AD&D2e core books, & Mythus. They've allowed Star Frontiers & Marvel Superheroes to be given away for free.

Would fixing problems with those PDFs significantly increase market dilution? Would selling PDFs of the Moldvay Basic & Cook/Marsh Expert in edition to all the games they already sell PDFs for significantly increase dilution?

 

[Arnwyn]

First you say this:

Do what you like with your own game, but don't you dare put restriction on mine.

But then (in the same thread!) you say this:

To be brutally honest, I don't want to see weapon speed factor rules in any WotC's printed RPG product, now and in the future. Not even in the big book of variant rules, Unearthed Arcana.

If you want it, houserule it on your own.

Ouch! The irony is painful.

 

[MarauderX]

2E was an abhorant abomination IMO. I left the game for a long time, mostly because of the direction of 2E.

 

[Ranger REG]

Ouch! The irony is painful.

Only if you don't agree how I feel about the concept weapon speed factor rules. (So far, all of the rules I've seen are restrictive.) If you want to strike your weapon first, acquire a feat or pick up a magic item with speed/quickness ability.