does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[Lodow MoBo]

Many people feel Half Orcs are underpowered; they are wrong.


The real penalty dwarves get isn't charisma, it's move rate.

This is countered by not having a penalty for move rate due to armor. Medium armor would put a 30 base move to 20 anyway.

Dwarfs are the only race that can tumble in platemail if you read the rule for tumble and wording for the armor not effecting move rate..

 

[Darklone]

Dwarfs are the only race that can tumble in platemail if you read the rule for tumble and wording for the armor not effecting move rate..

Yeap. Considering every class uses either light or heavy armor, dwarves movement restriction is usually an advantage.

 

[Endur]

Strength is the most important stat in combat. That's why half-orcs (and orcs) are balanced as a LA+0 race.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Strength is the most important stat in combat. That's why half-orcs (and orcs) are balanced as a LA+0 race.

Orcs get double the Strength bonus and virtually the same set of penalties (slightly worse). If half-orcs are balanced at LA +0, then how can the more powerful orc be considered balanced at that LA?

 

[Terath Ninir]

Strength is the most important stat in combat. That's why half-orcs (and orcs) are balanced as a LA+0 race.

Everybody claims that and nobody has any proof to back it up.

 

[Seeten]

Strength is the most important stat in combat. That's why half-orcs (and orcs) are balanced as a LA+0 race.

I believe my statements above show that this is markedly false, and since wizards do more damage in combat with int, and Sorcerors do more with cha, why arent we doublepenalizing, or giving extra bonuses to races with cha penalties.

Or maybe we are, and thats why Dwarves are so godly.

 

[Aaron L]

I think the issue is what you comapre the Half-Orc to. If you compare it to the best of the races (dwarf, for sure, and probably human) then it looks weak. Compared to an average race it looks about right (Elf with the very situational weapon proficiencies that can be meaningless of the elf is a melee character and the weak constitution score). Compared to an actually weak race (Half-Elf; just doesn't dominate everywhere and has abilities way weaker than either the human parent or the elf parent) then the Half-Orc looks okay as it at least is able to focus.

So from a pwoer perspective it is about average as far as I can tell, maybe a bit less compared to popular choices

I've alway thought that the idea behind balance was the idea that everything should be equal.

When some races are so apparently weaker than others that people have to point out that we are "comparing them to a stronger race" than that's unbalanced by definition, isn't it?

 

[Klaus]

Half-orcs are underpowered not only when compared to dwarves and humans, but also to elves and halflings.

Half-Orcs get +2 Str. Elves get +2 Dex. Both are equally important in combat (Dex doubly so, since it helps defense and offense for archers and finessers).
Half-Orcs get Darkvision. Elves get Low-light vision and a free Search vs. secret doors.
Half-Orcs get Orc blood. Elves get immunity to magical sleep.
Half-Orcs get -2 Int. Elves get -2 Con. One reduces effectiveness in non-combat challenges, the other reduces staying power in combat (but the Dex bonus makes the elf harder to hit).
Half-Orcs get -2 Cha. Elves get +2 to Spot, Search and Listen, 3 very important skills.
Half-Orcs get... er... . Elves get four free Martial Weapon Proficiencies.

 

[Seeten]

The reality is the strength attribute suffers from "Ohh shiny" syndrome, and is, in point of fact, no better than any other attribute. This leaves half-orcs with miserable stat mods, a single class, or at most, a pair of classes it excels at, and a host of options effectively closed off to the min maxer. They get nothing in return, either, even flavor wise.

They are dumb, not scary or forceful, have no skill bonuses, no race defining features, and the additional penalty of "Orc Blood". So, unless you take Frankthedm's excellently thought out approach, Half-Orcs are definitively weak as a race. Slightly better than Kobold and worse than all other PHB races, even worse than the pitiful half-elf.

 

[KarinsDad]

Everybody claims that and nobody has any proof to back it up.

Balance cannot be proved one way or another.

Just like you cannot prove that Half-Orcs are an "inferior" core +0 race.

However, the advantages they have can be illustrated as per post #33.

+3 or +4 damage over other core races per successful hit is not weak. Whether it is balanced or not is debatable, but it is not insignificant.