does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[KarinsDad]

They are dumb, not scary or forceful, have no skill bonuses, no race defining features, and the additional penalty of "Orc Blood". So, unless you take Frankthedm's excellently thought out approach, Half-Orcs are definitively weak as a race. Slightly better than Kobold and worse than all other PHB races, even worse than the pitiful half-elf.

Not if what you compare them to is a Fighter or Barbarian of another race. Then, they do indeed shine brighter. Dwarves are the only race that even come close for Fighters or Barbarians, and even there, Half-Orcs win out in "the best defense is a good offense" strategy.

 

[Thurbane]

Mark me down firmly in the "Strength is not an inherently better stat to have a bonus on" camp...

 

[Seeten]

While I do not outright disagree that half-orcs make good barbs and passable fighters of a specific type, there is no balance argument why a +2 to Intimidate, Bluff and Survival skills, ala the Elf bonuses shouldnt be added. It doesnt increase their beatdown factor as a Barbarian or Fighter, and it does add flavor, and specific skill bonuses, like most other races have, and it increases their abilities as a Rogue, too.

In fact, Scarred Lands does just this with Half-Orc's and it is certainly not unbalancing. Half-Orc's simply don't get enough. I am not necessarily saying WotC should give them +2 con here. They simply need MORE than what they have, which is flavorless, unbalanced in the wrong direction attributes, and no particular direction.

You dont need to add further combat flash.

 

[javcs]

Not if what you compare them to is a Fighter or Barbarian of another race. Then, they do indeed shine brighter. Dwarves are the only race that even come close for Fighters or Barbarians, and even there, Half-Orcs win out in "the best defense is a good offense" strategy.

Only if you are using the exact same build, the 2h-strength PAer who doesn't expect to do much else. That's where half-orcs excel.

A properly built elf archer can put that 2h+PAing orc down with ease.
A properly build dwarf tank will absorb more than the 2h-PAer can dish out, while doing almost as much damage in return.
A properly built human almost anything comes with a free feat which means he's further down the feat chains/has more feat chains than the 2h-PAer, making him more versatile and probably equipped with more feats useful in a one on one, and more likely to be PrCed.

A Kobold fighter, though unlikely, is as fast, and significantly harder to hit, and is probably going to be a ranged specialist, and pretty good at it, with a better bonus to his attacks.

Halflings and gnomes probably aren't fighters or barbarians, but they'd be harder to hit, and have their own, wider niches to be in.


Pick an ECL, set of splatbooks, and statgen method, and I can build a fighter/barb from non-templated races other than the half-orc that are as good or better than your half-orc fighter/barb. Just about anybody could do it.
The point is, the half-orc can do well, in a limited set of roles, really only one or two, 2h and PA with some minor variations, whereas the other races can do as well or better in their own roles, and have more roles that they can fill reasonably well, while a half-orc can't really do much outside of the couple roles they have, and are only at their best with two classes from core, they're not even that good with most non-core classes, the other races are good with almost all classes, both core and non-core. In addition, the other races all have small bonuses that, though useful in limited situations, are good. Half-orcs don't even get bonuses when fighting dwarves, elves, or any other traditional foes, heck, an elf is more intimidating than a half-orc

In all honesty, half-elves, widely considered one of the weakest of the PHB races, are better than half-orcs.

Personally, I wouldn't play a half-orc unless I absolutely had to, if one of my chars got reincarnated as a half-orc, I'd probably either roll up a brand new character or get reincarnated again.

I'm not saying that half-orcs need more ability bonuses, but I do agree that their ability score mods should be different, and that they should get some minor, fairly useless, flavor bonuses, perhaps familiarity with orc double axes, and a moderately significant bonus to Intimidate, among other things.

 

[Fishbone]

No Charisma hit and 5 or 10 feet of extra movement.
Plenty of races move at 20 feet, 3 of which are core, why not one that can move at 35 or 40? And this would instantly make the Half Orc one of the best in the game with another class, the Paladin, and make them attractive in some sorcerous gish builds and with other things that aren't core like Battle Sorcerers/Hexblades etc.
That charisma hit doesn't really seem like a lot but it drastically limits a Half-Orcs options.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

No Charisma hit and 5 or 10 feet of extra movement....That charisma hit doesn't really seem like a lot but it drastically limits a Half-Orcs options.

to me, CHA represents social graces, something an orc should be severely lacking in. so, stat balance aside, it makes sense from a flavor perspective.

 

[Zzyzx]

This may be off topic, because it is about fluff, but I like half-orcs because of their dumb-and-strong role, and am willing to pay a little in versatility to play one. If I wanted to play anything besides a dumb-and-strong character, I wouldn't play a half-orc. I think this is a valid design decision. The fact that there is such a strong debate on racial power balance indicates to me that the "gyppness" is not clear cut.

And I too think that scent is a little strong for a bonus feat. Making them eligible for scent (as above, with Wis 13 as prereq) is a good idea in my opinion. I have always liked the idea of giving Endurance as a bonus feat for orcs and half-orcs, mostly because it makes the game more fun as we play it (less times out of armor, etc.)

 

[KarinsDad]

A properly build dwarf tank will absorb more than the 2h-PAer can dish out, while doing almost as much damage in return.

Mathematically, this is just totally inaccurate.


If you create a Dwarf Tank with Two Handed weapon, they should have the same Dex, Con +2 advantage Dwarf, and Str +2 advantage Half-Orc.

So same AC, Half-Orc has +1 to hit +2 damage. If the Half-Orc power attacks for one, he does 3 or 4 points of damage more per successful hit.

This means that every successful hit takes out 3 or 4 levels of the Dwarf's Con bonus.

For example, the Half-Orc with 20 Str and 14 Con, Dwarf with 18 Str and 16 Con. The Half-Orc will be doing 2D6 + 9 damage (PA for 1 to get the same chance to hit) whereas the Dwarf will be doing 2D6 + 6 damage. The Half-Orc Barbarian has 14 hit points, the Dwarf does 13 hits of damage. The Dwarf Barbarian has 15 hit points, the Half-Orc does 16 damage. The Half-Orc is injured, the Dwarf is unconscious.


If you create a Dwarf Tank with Sword and Board, they should have the same Dex, Con +2 advantage Dwarf, and Str +2 advantage Half-Orc.

At low level, the Dwarf has +2 AC because of the large shield, but the Half-Orc is +1 to hit. This equates to a 5% difference.

So, if the Half-Orc has a 25% chance of hitting the Dwarf, the Dwarf has a 30% chance of hitting the Half-Orc.

However, the Half-Orc will be doing 2D6 + 1.5 Str damage whereas the Dwarf will be doing D8 + (Str-1) damage. If the Half-Orc has a Strength of 18, the Dwarf has a Str of 16. 25% * 13 points of damage is 4.25 average for the Half-Orc versus 30% * 7.5 = 2.25 damage for the Dwarf. The Half-Orc nearly doubles the average damage output.

As levels get higher, the damage output by the Half-Orc still exceeds that of the Dwarf.

Say, 11th level. Dwarf Fighter has AC 25 with +1 Dex, +2 Longsword, +2 Full Plate, and +2 Large Shield.

Half-Orc Fighter has AC 21 with +1 Dex, +2 Greatsword and +2 Full Plate.

Str 26 Con 18 Half-Orc (+4 Belt and +2 Amulet), Str 24 Con 20 Dwarf (same magic items)

Both have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Hit points Half-Orc 109, Dwarf 120.

Full round attack, the Sword and Board Dwarf averages:

(95% * D8+11) + (80% * D8+11) + (55% * D8+11) = 35.65

The Half-Orc averages:

(90% * 2D6+16) + (65% * 2D6+16) + (40% * 2D6+16) = 44.85

3 Full Round attacks, the Half-Orc is still standing, the Dwarf is dead (not even unconscious on average).

Even if the Dwarf modifies his to hit with Power Attack to match the to hit chance of the Half-Orc, it becomes:

(90% * D8+14) + (65% * D8+14) + (40% * D8+14) = 36.075


As an offensive melee combatant, the Dwarf just does not match up to the two handed weapon Half-Orc.

As a defensive melee combatant (both hit points and saves versus spells), the Dwarf is better.


Pros and Cons. But in offensive two handed weapon melee, no core race beats the Half-Orc. And, that is why the race is balanced. It spikes over all other races for a specific role of character, but it is generally less favorable in most other roles.

One has to understand the mathematical advantage of Strength, Two Handed Weapons, and Power Attack to get how really advantageous +2 Strength actually is in the game.

 

[Fishbone]

Eh, I think the emphasis on Charisma being thought of first and foremost as debonair, queen wooing sexual mojo is overstated and it has always been more about force of will and general personality. Dwarves get the Charisma hit not because they're uncouth, they get it because they are gruff bordering on rude and terse with their words. I see no reason why a half-orc would be like that. If anything I always thought of them as being far more barbarian/Germanic than Dwarves and charisma and battle skills were just about all that counted for a male warrior in those societies. I like to play Half-Orcs more like thanes than drunken bastards. Also, from a mechanical standpoint I see little reason for the Charisma hit. It essentially gimps them away from several attractive classes and severely limits their impact and use in a game world.

 

[Darklone]

Mathematically, this is just totally inaccurate.

...

One has to understand the mathematical advantage of Strength, Two Handed Weapons, and Power Attack to get how really advantageous +2 Strength actually is in the game.

Thanks Karinsdad. I know that stuff is true, but pretty often people don't believe you till you write it out.

A properly built elf archer can put that 2h+PAing orc down with ease.
A properly build dwarf tank will absorb more than the 2h-PAer can dish out, while doing almost as much damage in return.
A properly built human almost anything comes with a free feat which means he's further down the feat chains/has more feat chains than the 2h-PAer, making him more versatile and probably equipped with more feats useful in a one on one, and more likely to be PrCed.

Good jokes. A properly built elf archer? Which point buy? At which distance, how much cover. 300ft and the halforc has to carry his horse? And built with a houserule that allows him to add his Dex bonus to damage?

You claim a lot and nearly nothing matches my experience (or has been shown wrong by Karinsdad). Karinsdad even assumes one 18 and one 14 as attributes... as has been mentioned more than once, for "normal" point buys (as by the PHB) the halforc is much stronger than people are used to have him. Calculate the same examples with a 16, 14, 13... stat array and you'll see how far the halforc is ahead.