Does anyone make their own summon monster lists?

[Olive]

Has anyone made their own summon monster lists using other sources than the monster manuals? does anyone use the anarchic and axiomatic templates from manual of the planes?

i'm thinking that this would be appropriate for my campaign, but was wanting to see if anyone else had tried it...

 

[CWD]

I haven't used those templates, but I do use a custom list. Sorcerers in my homebrew summon dragons (very weak ones of course), but have to offer the dragon payment before it will obey the summoner. Works pretty well, and the players seem to enjoy summoning dragons a lot more than "fiendish dire sheep" or whatever.

Hmmm... Fiendish dire sheep. I have an adventure idea.

 

[Olive]

Hmmm... Fiendish dire sheep. I have an adventure idea.

i'm a wee bit scared...

but seriously, anyone out there use any other things on their summon moster list?

 

[Klaus]

I use the PHB tables, but the player can choose any of those creatures with the appropriate template (say, celestial hawks)...

 

[Psion]

Well, I wouldn't see anything wrong with swapping out templates, and I have a rule of thumb for putting in new creatures that is less than perfect, but it works for me:

CR of creature on table for level X = 1 1/2 * X

Bump it up to the next level if:
- It has spell like abilities (like most actual outsiders)
- It has special abilities that cause ability damage of other persistent effects. (e.g., poison)

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, I wouldn't see anything wrong with swapping out templates, and I have a rule of thumb for putting in new creatures that is less than perfect, but it works for me:

CR of creature on table for level X = 1 1/2 * X

Bump it up to the next level if:
- It has spell like abilities (like most actual outsiders)
- It has special abilities that cause ability damage of other persistent effects. (e.g., poison)

This formula seems pretty off to me, unless there's a typo in it; until you get to the higher levels, generally critters have a CR of roughly the level of summon monster -1, not 1 1/2 the level of summon monster.

Summon monster II gets you a wolf, CR 1, or a Formian worker, CR 1/2. Summon monster 4 gets a dire ape, CR 3, or a small arrowhawk, CR 3.

I've thought about allowing people to customize their summon monster list with appropriate CRs, but I'm afraid of the munchkin possibilities. Similarly, I've thought about proposing to my DM that I be able to customize my summon nature's ally list -- but again, I'm afraid of the munchkin possibilities.

Daniel

 

[Psion]

This formula seems pretty off to me, unless there's a typo in it; until you get to the higher levels, generally critters have a CR of roughly the level of summon monster -1, not 1 1/2 the level of summon monster.

Take a look at the high end. Creature CRs are as high as 13.

I generally bounce my results against the existing list and tweak it from there, but I usually get within one of where a creature is supposed to be.

 

[Olive]

Summon monster II gets you a wolf, CR 1, or a Formian worker, CR 1/2. Summon monster 4 gets a dire ape, CR 3, or a small arrowhawk, CR 3.

don't have the books to hand, but don't you get a FIENDISH wolf, or CELESTIAL dire ape? and don't those templates give you +1 CR?

 

[Pielorinho]

Take a look at the high end. Creature CRs are as high as 13.

I generally bounce my results against the existing list and tweak it from there, but I usually get within one of where a creature is supposed to be.

Psion, as I said, this doesn't work until you get to the high end. Once you're up around SMVII and higher, you'll almost never summon a creature with a CR higher than the spell's level.

Olive, a fiendish wolf is the same CR as a regular wolf; a fiendish dire ape is one CR higher, you're right. (I'm used to running a druid, so I'm more familiar with the less powerful SNA spells).

Again, though, I don't think a formula based on CR is the right way to approach this. THere's too much room for munchkinizing the list.

Furthermore, consider as a DM whether you want to make SM completely more powerful than SNA. As it's written, summon nature's ally generally summons less powerful (untemplated) creatures, but the caster has a much broader range of creatures to summon. A cleric casting a summoning spell, OTOH, is limited to the few creatures whose alignment comes close to matching her alignment.

Sorcerers and wizards don't have that restriction -- but then, their spells are *supposed* to be better in combat.

I think my suggestion would be to let a cleric choose three or four creatures of each level that they can summon. They don't need to be the ones in the book, but they need to be very close in power level to the ones in the book. And they can't summon any others.

IMC, for example, the players have been fighting evil clerics of a god whose symbols include scorpions and lizards; guess what critters I've added to these clerics' summoning lists?

Daniel

 

[Psion]

Again, though, I don't think a formula based on CR is the right way to approach this. THere's too much room for munchkinizing the list.

Then by all means feel free not to use it. But considering that I don't see much consistency in the lists as they stand, I see little point in slavishly adhering to the model they created.

That said, I am opting for 1 1/2 * X -1 (round up unless less than one) instead of 1 1/2 * X (round down) as it seems to hit those low data points better.