Does anyone make their own summon monster lists?

[Valorian]

Has anyone made their own summon monster lists using other sources than the monster manuals? does anyone use the anarchic and axiomatic templates from manual of the planes?

i'm thinking that this would be appropriate for my campaign, but was wanting to see if anyone else had tried it...

I'm currently working on an expanded list, that features creatures from Creature Collection I&II (Sword and Sorcery), Manual of the Planes, and Faerunian (sp?) monsters (from the source book and Moster of Faerun)...once I get it done I'll post it to the list. Oh...yeah I'm also including undead (ala Summon Undead from Magic of Faerun).

I plan to just post the critters w/ no templates, and allow the player's to spontaneously add anarchic, axiomatic, celestial, or fiendish templates to the summoned animals as appropriate.

I'm also planning to allow Druids to choose to add elemental templates (they may not well not want to, as they have certain spells which can enchance animals (animal growth for instance)(earth, air, fire, or water), and the "plant" template (all from Manual of the Planes).

It's probably 4th on my list of things I want to do, so I'd say at leat a month away, but I'll post it to the lists for comments, when I get done.

 

[Olive]

Thats what I was wondering about Valorian...

I'd love to see it when it's done...maybeyou could add a new post to this list?

 

[Shade]

I allow casters to summon axiomatic and anarchic creatures in place of the celestial/fiendish templates for the same creatures on the summon monster list.

I do have some restrictions: Clerics may only add a template that is within one step of their patron's alignment. Thus a lawful good caster gets a celestial or axiomatic template, while a chaotic evil caster gets an anarchic or fiendish template. For neutral alignments, I give them access to fiendish template if they rebuke undead, and the celestial template if they turn undead, in addition to axiomatic if they are lawful neutral and anarchic if they are chaotic neutral. True neutral can apply any of the templates.

Sorceror/wizards can summon whatever they want.

I've seen no balance issues, and it has added additional flavor and tactics to our campaign.

 

[Olive]

thanks shade...

all the major gods in my campaign are some kinda neutral (LN, CN, NG, NE or NN).

Its always frustrating how the DnD creatures seem so set up for LG or other alignments. So I'm going to let the cleric of a CN god summon anarchic creatures, and any CG or CN creatures on the lists. i'll have to decide about the celestial creayres, but i can see how it would be tactically interesting.

 

[IanB]

A straight CR formula will never work out for determining summon monster charts, because the same abilities that make a monster challenging for a PC group to fight against don't necessarily translate to keeping them balanced as a summoned ally. Take creatures with any sort of healing power for example; those creatures need to be much higher than you would normally put a monster of their CR if only because they give a wizard or sorceror a source of healing spells.

Another example is DR; the ever-popular celestial dire bear wouldn't be nearly such a pain in the DM's rear if it didn't have 10/+3 DR. PCs are generally much more likely to have a way of bypassing DR than a randomly selected band of enemies.

There's a long laundry list of other abilities that make relying on a strict formula pretty useless - when the formula only gives an appropriate answer, say, 1/3 of the time, it isn't really very useful.

 

[Valorian]

Another example is DR; the ever-popular celestial dire bear wouldn't be nearly such a pain in the DM's rear if it didn't have 10/+3 DR. PCs are generally much more likely to have a way of bypassing DR than a randomly selected band of enemies.

I've always had a probem, with that critter on the MS VI list, its way better than the rest.... I was assured by another person on the lists, that it was meant to be a polar bear, not a dire bear (not in the official errata...I checked)...I'm planning to go with that in my campaign...thus the DR, whould only be +2/5 (I think don't have the book in front of me).

 

[nharwell]

CRs for monster summoning

I pulled this off of the WOTC message boards months ago. I'm afraid that I've forgotten the original poster, so I apologize for not giving proper credit.

OK, I went through the Monster Summoning list and here's a list of the CR by spell level, and the order they're printed in the PHB.
Notes:
* means one CR has been added because of the celestial or fiendish template
** means two CRs have been added.
eg. Celestial Rhinoceros Cr 4 + 2 (a celestial creature of 8+ HD) = CR 6**
I - .333, .5, .333, .333
II - .5, .5, 1, 1, 1, 1, .333, 1, 1
III - 2, 2, 4, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, <?>, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, .5, 2, 2, 2, 2
IV - 2, 3, 3, 4*, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 4*, 4*, 3, 2, 1, 3
V - 5*, 4, 7**, 3, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 5*, 5**, 3, 5*, 6**, 3*, 5, 5, 2, 3, 5*, 5*, 5*, 6*
VI - 9**, 4*, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 6, 7, <?>, 7, 6, 4*
VII - 10**, 9, 5, 5, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 8, 8, 6, 10**, 9, 10**
VIII - 7, 7, 4 (?), 9, 4(?), 10, 11**, 9, 9
IX - 8, 10, 14, 13, 11, 5 (???), 6(???), 9, 13, 9, 5, 13

Level 3 <?> - I can't find "gorilla" anywhere
Level 6 <?> - What is a Bezekira? (it's not even listed in the index at the front)
Level 8 (?) - Djinni (CR5) is on the level 7 list, why is Janni (CR4) on the level 8 list?
- ummm... Barghests aren't that powerful (their soul consumption power is kind of neat, but not that neat)
Level 9 (???) - see above
- a Xill is on par with an Astral Deva?????? WTF
- yeah, by this point you might as well use Gate - you can get anything listed here +++
Here are the average CRs:
I - .4
II - .8
III - 2.0
IV - 2.9
V - 4.6
VI - 6.1
VII - 8.5
VIII - 7.8 (??????) Even ignoring the two CR 4 ones, it's 8.9. Woo-hoo.
IX - 9.7

 

[nharwell]

another examination of MS lists

Here's another old post from the WOTC boards...

In preparation for a campaign which I expect to be summoning-heavy, I just went through the summoning lists with an eye towards adding some more creatures. I came up with the following rough guidelines.

The basic rule is to match the new creature's CR with a similar creature's CR. The trick is to figure out what "similar" means. I use the following basic categories, which are listed in descending order of CR for any particular Summon spell (I will illustrate with Summoning VI spell as it has a good mix):

1. Pure Melee
Creatures whose abilities are really only useful in direct, toe-to-toe melee combat.
E.g. Celestial Dire Bear (CR 8)

2. Mildly Magical, Intelligent, and/or Scouting
Creatures who combine some usefulness in melee with some magical abilities, intelligence, or scouting abilities. At lower levels, this tends to mean birds. At mid levels it means minor demons and devils with a few spells, some resistance, etc. I think of this as the "default" CR for the spell since it covers most of the creatures.
E.g. Red Slaad (CR 7), Kyton (CR 6), Erinyes (CR 7)

3. Elementals
I'm not sure why (perhaps because they combine good melee with good immunities) but elementals tend to be about 1 CR down from the "default" CR.
E.g. Large Elemental (CR 5)

4. Especially Useful Creatures
Creatures that have magical abilities that can really aid parties (unicorn), with magic significantly more powerful than their combat ability (imps, djinni), or with nasty poison (vipers) are significantly below the default CR for the spell.
E.g. Unicorn (CR 3), Huge Viper (CR 3)

I think these guidelines explain pretty well the distribution; although its clear that for balance reasons the designers thought of this as versatile, but mostly combat-oriented spell. However, there are some exceptions:

1. Summoning IX tends to be all over the map with its CRs. This doesn't bother me too much since it seemes doubtful that it gets used very much - its very high level and Gate is more useful anyway.

2. The following creatures seem to be very underpowered for the list they are on, for no reason that I can figure out (again this is on Summon 8 and 9 lists):

* Janni (CR 4) on Summon 8;
* Barghest (CR 4) and Greater Barghest (CR 5) on Summon 8 and 9;
* Xill (CR 6) on Summon 9.

 

[nharwell]

and a new list...

Finally, here's a revised MS list by the same poster on the WOTC boards.

CR Source Creature
Summoning I
0.5 MM 193 Badger, template
0.1 MM 193 Bat, template
0.3 MM 57 Dire rat, template
0.3 MM 195 Dog, template
0.3 MM 197 Hawk, template
0.2 MM 198 Monkey, template
0.25 MM 201 Raven, template
0.25 MM 203 Weasel, template

Summoning II
0.5 MM 17 Animated Object (Tiny), template
0.5 MM 196 Eagle, template
0.5 MM 90 Formorian worker
1 MM 48 Lemure (Devil)
1 MM 199 Octopus, template
0.25 MM 209 Scorption (Tiny Vermin), template
1 MM 200 Shark (medium-sized), template
0.25 MM 209 Spider (Tiny Vermin), template
1 MM 200 Squid, template
0.25 MM 200 Viper (Tiny Snake), template
1 Warrior (1st level), Celestial
1 Warrior (1st level), Fiendish
1 Warrior (1st level), Shadow
1 MM 204 Wolf, template

Summoning III
1 MM 17 Animated Object (Small), template
2 MM 22 Azer
0.5 MM 206 Bee, Giant (Vermin), template
2 MM 194 Bison, template
2 MM 193 Black Bear, template
2 MM 194 Boar, template
2 MM 200 Constrictor (Snake), template
2 MM 195 Crocodile, template
2 MM 56 Dire Badger, template
2 MM 57 Dire Bat, template
2 MM 56 Dire Weasel, template
2 MM 41 Dretch (Demon)
1 MM 81 Elemental (Small)
2 MM 193 Gorilla aka Ape, template
2 MM 197 Leopard, template
2 MM 198 Lizard (Giant), template
1 MP 181 Paraelemental (Small)
2 MM 159 Salamandar (Small)
0.5 MM 209 Scorpion (Small Vermin), template
2 MM 200 Shark (Large), template
0.5 MM 210 Spider (Small Vermin), template
2 MM 175 Thoqqua
4 MM 178 Triton
0.5 MM 200 Viper (Small Snake), template
2 MM 204 Wolverine, template

Summoning IV
3 MM 17 Animated Object (Large), template
3 MM 19 Arrowhawk (Small)
3 MM 57 Dire Ape, template
3 MM 204 Dire Wolf, template
3 MP 170 Dusk Beast (Ephemera)
3 MM 102 Giant Eagle
3 MM 103 Giant Owl
3 MM 118 Hell hound
3 MM 121 Howler
2 MM 48 Imp (Devil)
2 MM 29 Lantern Archon (Celestial)
3 MM 198 Lion, template
3 MM 130 Magmin
1 MM 209 Scorpion (Medium-Size Vermin), template
1 MM 210 Spider (Medium-Size Vermin), template
3 MM 177 Tojanida (Small)
2 MM 182 Vargouille
1 MM 200 Viper (Medium-size Snake), template
3 MM 187 Xorn (Small)

Summoning V
5 MM 15 Achaierai
6 MM 17 Animated Object (Huge), template
5 MM 19 Arrowhawk (Medium-size)
5 MM 193 Brown Bear, template
6 MM 200 Constrictor (Giant Snake), template
5 MM 195 Crocodile (Giant), template
5 MM 194 Dire Boar, template
6 MM 57 Dire Lion, template
5 MM 57 Dire Wolverine, template
3 MM 81 Elemental (Medium-size)
3 MM 90 Formorian Warrior
6 MM 104 Girallon, template
5 MM 113 Griffon, template
4 MM 29 Hound Archon (Celestial)
3 MM 132 Mephit (any)
5 MM 137 Minotaur, Fiendish
6 MM 203 Orca (Whale), template
3 MP 181 Paraelemental (Medium-size)
3 MM 148 Pegasus, Celestial
3 MM 153 Quasit
5 MM 200 Rhinocerous, template
5 MM 159 Salamandar (Medium-size)
2 MM 209 Scorpion (Large Vermin), template
5 MM 162 Shadow Mastiff
2 MM 200 Shark (Large), template
2 MM 210 Spider (Large Vermin), template
4 MP 167 Spinagon (Devil)
5 MM 203 Tiger, template
5 MM 177 Tojanida (Medium-size)
2 MM 200 Viper (Large Snake), template
3 MM 207 Wasp (Giant Vermin), template
4 MP 169 Xag-Ya (Energon) [note: not controllable]
5 MP 169 Xeg-Yi (Energon) [note: not controllable]
3 MM 188 Yeth Hound

Summoning VI
7 MP 164 Armanite (Demon)
7 MM 48 Barbazu (Devil)
6 MM 26 Belker
7 MM 48 Bezekira, aka HellCat (Devil)
6 MP 187 Canoloth (Yugoloth)
7 MM 34 Chaos Beast
8 MM 58 Dire Bear, template
5 MM 81 Elemental (Large)
7 MM 48 Erinyes (Devil)
4 MM 94 Janni (Genie)
6 MM 48 Kyton
5 MP 181 Paraelemental (Large)
5 MM 154 Rast
3 MM 209 Scorpion (Huge Vermin), template
7 MM 166 Slaad (Red)
3 MM 210 Spider (Huge Vermin), template
3 MM 181 Unicorn, Celestial
6 MP 164 Uridezu (Demon)
3 MM 200 Viper (Huge Snake), template
6 MM 187 Xorn (Medium-size)

Summoning VII
8 MM 17 Animated Object (Gargantuan), template
8 MM 197 Arrowhawk (Large)
9 MM 29 Avoral Guardian (Celestial)
9 MM 41 Bebilith (Demon)
10 MM 58 Dire Tiger, template
5 MM 94 Djinni (Genie)
9 MP 170 Ecalypse (Ephemera)
7 MM 81 Elemental (Huge)
10 MM 197 Elephant, template
8 MM 49 Hamatula (Devil)
7 MM 123 Invisible Stalker
8 MM 55 Megaraptor (Dinosaur), template
7 MP 187 Mezzoloth (Yugoloth)
9 MP 167 Narzugon
10 MM 199 Octopus (Giant), template
6 MM 48 Osyluth (Devil)
7 MP 181 Paraelemental (Huge)
5 MM 154 Ravid
8 MM 166 Slaad (Blue)
9 MM 177 Tojanida (Large)
9 MM 55 Triceratops (Dinosaur), template
8 MM 187 Xorn (Large)

Summoning VIII
4 MM 22 Barghest (Medium-size)
10 MM 49 Cornugon (Devil)
8 MP 173 Dao (Genie)
9 MM 81 Elemental (Greater)
10 MP 162 Firre Eladrin (Celestial)
7 MM 90 Formorian Taskmaster
7 MM 128 Lillend
9 MP 181 Paraelemental (Greater)
9 MM 159 Salamandar (Large)
11 MM 200 Squid (Giant), template
9 MM 41 Succubus (Demon)
10 MM 55 Tyrannosaurus (Dinosaur), template
9 MP 173 Zelekhut (Inevitable)

Summoning IX
12 MM 17 Animated Object (Colossal), template
14 MM 30 Astral Deva (Celestial)
5 MM 22 Barghest (Large)
10 MM 38 Couatl
8 MM 95 Efreeti (Genie)
11 MM 81 Elemental (Elder)
13 MM 49 Gelugon (Devil)
13 MM 30 Ghaele Eladrin (Celestial)
13 MP 164 Goristro (Demon)
12 MP 177 Kolyarut
8 MM 127 Lammasu
12 MP 162 Leonal Guardinal (Celestial)
9 MP 173 Marid (Genie)
9 MM 140 Night Hag
5 MM 140 Nightmare
13 MP 187 Nycaloth (Yugoloth)
11 MP 181 Paraelemental (Elder)
9 MM 153 Rakshasa
11 MM 209 Scorpion (Gargantuan Vermin), template
11 MM 210 Spider (Gargantuan Vermin), template
13 MM 41 Vrock (Demon)
6 MM 187 Xill

 

[Olive]

Thanks for that stuff. that might be very useful for my game today...