does anyone think sunder is too easy?

[Gort]

Also, don't forget Improved Sunder from Sword and Fist.

You do double damage when you sunder. It's sick!

 

[Staffan]

It works for me. Scrolls have plenty of disadvantages - bulky, fragile, you actually need to cast the spell, and it can go wrong if you're too low level. A wand of cure light wounds with 50 charges is ridiculously cheap at 750gp IMO. I don't find it well-balanced at all. Maybe if you ignore encumbrance it is.

I don't have my DMG handy at the moment, but neither scrolls nor wands have a weight listed in the SRD. A single scroll would probably qualify as 1/10 lb (that's what paper/parchment counts as, right?) while a wand might be 1/2. Neither one would exactly be an encumbrance nightmare.
Wands are pretty much only useful for things like Wand of Cure Light Wounds - utility/healing/defensive stuff you want to use a lot but where saves don't matter. They don't work well for offensive stuff (on account of sucky saves), and they don't work well for occasional-use utility/healing stuff like Restoration (because you have to buy 50 charges at once). So, yes, you get a break on the price of a wand because it's only really useful for a narrow range of spells.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Just a quick note (and this might belong in the House Rules forum instead): I don't think this is a good idea. The wand is cheaper than 50 scrolls as a form of discount for buying (making) lots of charges at once - you're giving up flexibility by making a wand instead of scrolls. Also, the wand is more limited than scrolls since it can only do spells of 4th level or less. I think wands are pretty well-balanced (vs. scrolls) as it is.

Wandss at a full 50 charages seem rather weak, expensive and limited compared to a 1 or 2 use per day permenant wondrous item. Sure, there are advantages and disadvantages to both item types, but give limited funds, wondrous items are a much more attractive route.

I think allowing less than full charged wands is okay. Haven't seen any signficant problems yet...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sunder isn't really overpowered in D&D. The use of it almost always entails loss for the user - the loss of some good solid damage, AND the loss of a potentially very expensive weapon that he could sell or make good use of later.

Even bad guys need to pay the rent. Remember that.

It ends up being a tactic for use in fairly desperate situations only.

Disarm is a whole new ball game. Although it still suffers the problems of lost attacks, it's significantly better in that it's a one-shot solution (as opposed to the damage mechanic of sunder), and that it doesn't lose you any money. OTOH, it can be protected against with a locked gauntlet, and it can also be fixed after it occurs (by picking up the weapon).

As to level coming into it, and the debate about hitpoint mechanics etc. Disarm is an opposed attack roll. I think that pretty much says it all. Fighters will succeed about 50% against other fighters of their level, and success is very closely linked to combat experience (ie - levels of full BAB classes). I think that using a hitpoint mechanic would probably be a bad thing (why does my CON help me hold onto a sword??).

I'd agree that disarming is probably a little too easy to accomplish for someone with improved disarm. OTOH, that's an investment of two feats, one of which negatively affects disarming (expertise would affect the disarm roll, so it's either unused, or it makes improved disarm worse). And of course that investment is worth very little when you come upon opponents who are larger than you, have natural weapons, or have locked gauntlets.

 

[Marshall]

Even bad guys need to pay the rent. Remember that.

Only the BBEG might think twice about Sundering a PCs weapons...

As to level coming into it, and the debate about hitpoint mechanics etc. Disarm is an opposed attack roll. I think that pretty much says it all. Fighters will succeed about 50% against other fighters of their level, and success is very closely linked to combat experience (ie - levels of full BAB classes).

50% !?!?!??
THAT is the problem. Both with Sunder or Disarm, the defender should have a fairly sizable advantage to avoid the specials altogether. How many fights in fantasy or even real life end with one side disarmed/sundered? Especially in the first twelve seconds of combat?!?

 

[Celebrim]

I totally agree with Marshall.

Against a fighter of your ability, the chance to disarm or sunder should be small.

I have a feat in my campaign world called 'Counter Moves' that gives you a +4 bonus to the opposed role when you are the target of a disarm, sunder, or trip attempt. That only addresses part of the problem though.

You should only reutinely consider sundering or disarming a foe of inferior combat skill. It is uncinematic and probably unrealistic otherwise.

As to the logic of a high level fighter contributing 'hardness' via his skill to his weapon, I think you are confused about what I'm suggesting. I am not suggesting that Con, toughness, or the characters hit points should contribute to the hit points of the weapon. I'm suggesting the characters BAB should contribute to the effective hardness of the weapon for purposes of sundering, because a high level fighter - even when bested - should still know how to protect his weapon just as well as he knows how to protect himself.

If a 20th level fighter contributed 20 points of effective hardness to his weapon, it would greatly reduce the problem - though something as good as improved sunder would _still_ be problematic.

 

[LuYangShih]

I tend to agree with those who think Sunder and Disarm are too powerful. You also rarely see such feats attempted successfully in fantasy novels or movies, unless the opponent is not as powerful or skilled as the enemy facing them. Yet in D&D, an opponent of equal, or even lesser, skill level will succeed in the attempt at least half the time.

Disarm is much worse than Sunder, by the way. Disarming opponents weapons, and then picking them up, is very easy to do, and makes it very difficult for the opponent to reclaim his own weapon, especially if they stow it in a Hewards Handy Haversack or Bag Of Holding.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Sunder is only 'too easy' if you have a +5 weapon, or (as GM) are using metagame knowledge as to what '+' an opponent's weapon has. Sunder is a risky tactic if you don't know whether your enemy's weapon has a bigger '+'!
Few of my NPCs will use Sunder as a default option because they don't know whether it can work - it's more likely an act of desperation.
As for PC fighters using it, against weak opponents they won't bother. Against strong ones, it might well not work (the PCs in my game don't have vastly more magic than the NPCs) so if they want to have a go, good on them.

I agree that since it might fail because of a + deficiency it should be sued rarely. And I also think that a DM that uses it should also use it when the chance of success is nonexistent, otherwise its metagaming. Still I feel that when the attempt is amde it is too easy to suceed. I'll freelyu admit I'm not a medevil combat expert, but steel and even wood seems to break a lot easier than I'd like. And magic items of the non weapon variety break way, way too easy using the strike an object rules. The Ac to hit is pathetically easy past the low levels, and the hardness/HP or even the most potent of items usually sucks. Robe of the archmagi hardness 1 HP 5.

 

[S'mon]

The Sunder rules aren'tr realistic, I happily admit - real medieval swords would blunt, might even bend (too little carbon in the steel) but rarely broke, unless there was something seriously wrong with them. Remember in Conan the Barbarian, how surprised Rexor was when the Atlantean blade sundered his sword, the one Conan's father said of "This you can trust"?

Realistic weapons-breakage rules would have (small) chances for it to happen, sometimes accidentally, and it would be highly dependant on the type of weapon - an axe or greatsword can easily break a spear, but not vice versa, an axe's haft is tough but breakable by a really powerful blow, and big hunks of iron like swords really aren't inclined to break at all, really.

 

[hong]

I've put up a couple of possibilities for nerfing sunder and disarm in House Rules. Any comments, people?

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46437