D&D General Does D&D (and RPGs in general) Need Edition Resets?

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not trying to add third place to second place to get first place; and yes, that notion is meaningless.

I'm not sure just what point you're trying to make.

How do shields work?

They improve AC by either adding or subtracting an amount from it.

By definition, they are "add +1 (or w/e) armored-ness, to go from second-place armor to first-place armor." That's how descending AC works. And it isn't just shields. Rings of protection, magic armor, magic shields, spells, physical detriments, you name it, there's a whole host of arithmetic modifiers to armor class.

Expecting armor class to still work by ordinal rules when you are doing arithmetic to its values is a contradiction of the type of mathematical data it is claimed to be.

Well, the current regime and popularity of the game doesn't see the severity of this issue you do. As I said, if this grows to the point the train comes off the track, you'll get your reset.

As usual, the "it sells, therefore there can't be anything wrong with it" argument. With a side of "once it stops selling, that's when a problem suddenly appears."

Not if you wanted to grow the player base in the 2010s.

Especially when Pathfinder is letting you play creepy dolls and plants and the like. People looking for fun, creative options beyond Tolkien's stolen leftovers would have a very easy choice.

I have simply come to accept that some folks think everyone should have been limited to only using the "classic" options and never allowed anything else, no matter how much the data shows how wrongheaded that approach would be. Why they think it's in any way bad to merely offer an option that, at this point, actual millions of people have loved and enthusiastically embraced—particularly when many of these same people also make "it's popular/it sells, therefore it must be good" arguments—is simply beyond me.

 

[payn]

As usual, the "it sells, therefore there can't be anything wrong with it" argument. With a side of "once it stops selling, that's when a problem suddenly appears."

You are right, they should just reset a successful and popular product in hopes of being even more so.

 

[mamba]

Well, the current regime and popularity of the game doesn't see the severity of this issue you do. As I said, if this grows to the point the train comes off the track, you'll get your reset.

the current regime has not tried to change the game iteratively, see 3e, 4e, and 5e. Unless you somehow decide to ignore most of its history and just focus on the changes from the 2014 to the 2024 books

 

[payn]

the current regime has not tried to change the game iteratively, see 3e, 4e, and 5e. Unless you somehow decide to ignore most of its history and just focus on the changes from the 2014 to the 2024 books

By current regime I mean the folks in charge right now, making decisions in 2024. Not WotC as a company historically.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You are right, they should just reset a successful and popular product in hopes of being even more so.

If that is needed to fix a problem, why not?

I know many people who have complained to me personally that CR is frustrating, confusing, unreliable, even deceptive. I have seen many people, even avowed 5e fans, openly admit that 5e CR is often little better than a guess, and that the formulas for determining it from stats are garbage. I have even heard reports that a large proportion of actual 5e CRs do not actually follow the formulas they tell people to use, as they have been hand-adjusted ad hoc.

What is the value of retaining "backwards compatibility" with this aspect of the system, when even defenders admit it is seriously flawed?

 

[billd91]

Wasn't the introduction of Effective Character Levels and Level Adjustments in 3e's Savage Species, an attempt to discourage us players from playing something exotic? If so, it didn't really work because the players were still interested in wanting to playing a member of a monster race. It even hobbled WoTC when they made races such as first version of the Dragonborn, the Raptoran and the Warforged. They actually had to design workarounds to make them possible, but without a significant level adjustment.

I'm not sure I'd call it discouragement of playing something exotic - more like providing a tool to enable playing something a bit more powerful than a base PC race that hadn't originally been balanced for that. 5e's take on the issue has been to redesign suitable exotics down to similar power levels without a lot of inherent starting hit dice. And that means they've also nerfed out a lot of power and special abilities and, most definitely, size.

 

[payn]

If that is needed to fix a problem, why not?

I know many people who have complained to me personally that CR is frustrating, confusing, unreliable, even deceptive. I have seen many people, even avowed 5e fans, openly admit that 5e CR is often little better than a guess.

What is the value of retaining "backwards compatibility" with this aspect of the system, when even defenders admit it is seriously flawed?

Anecdotal and through playtest and sales you have been voted off the island on this.

 

[Parmandur]

the current regime has not tried to change the game iteratively, see 3e, 4e, and 5e. Unless you somehow decide to ignore most of its history and just focus on the changes from the 2014 to the 2024 books

I know people who play 5E thwt are younger than 5E. "Current regime" I read as "modern D&D since the early Teens".

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Anecdotal and through playtest and sales you have been voted off the island on this.

Which is, again, "because people bought it, there can't actually be a problem."

Unless we can discuss how a popular product can also be one that has design issues, sometimes even ones that require recall, there is nothing further we can say. But sure, if we wish to live in a universe where the Pinto couldn't possibly have a design fault because it sold well, then your conclusion is the only possible one we can come to.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, the current regime and popularity of the game doesn't see the severity of this issue you do. As I said, if this grows to the point the train comes off the track, you'll get your reset.

That's the point he's making, I think; some of the issues can't be addressed piecemeal. So either the designers shrug and decide not enough people have enough problem with it and leave it alone, or it reaches the point where they have to bite the bullet and go for the big jump. Those sorts of thing just don't have an "ease in" option.