Does D&D require healing magic? And is that a good thing?

[Celebrim]

so I did a quick skim of this thread, and I'm still confused.

Can someone point me to a single usage of healing magic in Lord of the Rings?

That's kind of a loaded question because in LotR the characters make no real distinction between performing magic and having great skill at something. This actually gets discussed tangentally by Galadriel and Frodo when she explains how the human term 'magic' always confuses her, because it seems to be used to cover so many different things, and also when Hobbits recieve the gifts from the Elves (unsinkable boats, ropes that untie themselves, color changing cloaks, so forth) the Hobbits ask if the gifts are 'magic' and the elves reply that they have no idea what the Hobbits mean, but that they are certainly 'well made'.

So its a hard question to answer because magic doesn't mean nearly the same in D&D as it does within LotR. But, I think we can safely assume that anything that goes beyond normal craftsmanship (color changing cloaks, for example) in D&D is magic in D&D, and using that standard magical healing occurs all the time in the LotR.

Starting from the top, when Aragorn finds Frodo having been attacked by the Wraiths, he not only uses his knowledge of herbalism to find a magical plant, but he concentrates and mutters something in an unusual way to Frodo which is very spell-like in nature to restore Frodo's lost ability points. Cure Light Wounds? Lesser Restoration? Hard to say. When Glorfindel finds the Hobbits, he examines Frodo's wound intently and his mere touch restores Frodo's strength. Again, Cure Light Wounds? Lesser Restoration. It's hard to say from the story, but its clear something like magical healing is going on because it isn't anything like surgery (unless its psychic surgery) or first aid. He then tells Aragorn that the wound is grave and beyond his ability as a healer, and that Elrond is needed. Offstage, Elrond heals Frodo, bringing him back from the brink of death and presumably in D&D terms restoring lost levels (Frodo is being energy or ability drained on the way to becoming a wraith). Elrond then provides the newly enlarged adventuring party with the gift of a flask of Mirrovir, which seems to function as a multi-dose potion of cure light wounds. The party uses this gift liberally over the next few encounters. After fleeing Moria, Aragorn provides something like first aid to the injured Hobbits, but he also does more of his 'psychic healing' stuff (IIRC). Later, after the Hobbits have been captured by orcs, the Orcs dose them with something that appears to be an Orc made healing potion in D&D terms. When Gandalf meets Theoden, the encounter isn't very much like the movie version's obvious exorcism, but there is clearly some sort of mental and spiritual healing going on (which we infer from other places to be a magical kindling of the spirit using Gandalf's magic ring). Later, after the battle of Pelenor fields, Aragorn goes in secret to the houses of healing in Minas Tirith, where his magical lore gives him the ability to do far more than the merely learned healers stationed there. We again see Aragorn doing something like entering Dreams and psychic (or Shamanistic) healing in addition to his herbalism. Then, in one of the most important scenes in the book, sadly missing from the movie, after Aragorn leaves the Houses of Healing, word has gotten out in the city that the King has returned because the true king will be known by the fact that he has 'the hands of a healer'. This is really hugely important clue to Aragorn's status, and to understand it we have to know a bit of medieval lore, but for D&D purposes what we really need to know is that a Paladin's ability to 'lay on hands' and Aragorns ability to heal because he is the true king derive from the same medieval myths and stories. So we can infer from this that in D&D terms, what Aragorn has been doing is at least in part 'laying on hands'. Offstage, Aragorn goes throughout the city - having not slept for like 3 days already - and heals his injured subjects before himself going to bed in the morning.

The reason clerics are unknown in Middle Earth is pretty straight forward. The one god of Middle Earth, Illuvatar, is unrevealed to his Children (elves and men). Elves and men don't know Illuvatar, and they couldn't be his clerics even if they wanted to be. Noone really knows how to worship Illuvatar correctly, and so the only 'clerics' per say are the Maia that have actually met Illuvatar and thus know how to worship him. The Maia themselves, at least the uncorrupted ones, don't encourage thier own worship, because they know that they aren't actually gods but merely servants of the One God. (The do sorta act like Catholic Saints, in the since that they can petition god on your behalf.) Furthermore, Illuvatar hasn't authorized any clerics, and the closest we come to seeing a figure in that role is the rightful King of Numenor was allowed to on one day of the year act as a high priest of Illuvatar and offer up a prayer to him alone atop a mountain.

But no clerics don't mean no healing magic, just no clerics.

 

[Voadam]

But "roleplaying" a troll is difficult. ;0

Grunt, sniff, chew
[repeat]

jh

Eh. Trolls talk. See _The Hobbit_. Or my character Snargle in the pbp game Invasion of Morithiel.

 

[molonel]

Can someone point me to a single usage of healing magic in Lord of the Rings? I don't think Frodo's convalescence in Rivendell counts, because whatever healing took place happened "off stage." The only cleric I can think of was maybe the regent in, uh, the name of the city escapes me. And I doubt that guy was terribly high-level.

Sure. Even if you don't count the healing in Rivendell, where Gandalf specifically says that Elrond's power was responsible for healing Frodo when nothing else could, you have Aragorn's use of Athelas to heal those afflicted during their battle with the Lord of the Nine.

(Or I could have saved myself the trouble and realized that someone had already answered the question.)

 

[Emirikol]

Eh. Trolls talk. See _The Hobbit_.

I like that one:

Grunt, sniff, "we'll eat you later", chew (er, turn to stone before they can chew ) Just poking fun at the troll..like a good hobbit might.

jh

 

[Odhanan]

That's kind of a loaded question because in LotR the characters make no real distinction between performing magic and having great skill at something. This actually gets discussed tangentally by Galadriel and Frodo when she explains how the human term 'magic' always confuses her, because it seems to be used to cover so many different things, and also when Hobbits recieve the gifts from the Elves (unsinkable boats, ropes that untie themselves, color changing cloaks, so forth) the Hobbits ask if the gifts are 'magic' and the elves reply that they have no idea what the Hobbits mean, but that they are certainly 'well made'.

So its a hard question to answer because magic doesn't mean nearly the same in D&D as it does within LotR. But, I think we can safely assume that anything that goes beyond normal craftsmanship (color changing cloaks, for example) in D&D is magic in D&D, and using that standard magical healing occurs all the time in the LotR.

Starting from the top, when Aragorn finds Frodo having been attacked by the Wraiths, he not only uses his knowledge of herbalism to find a magical plant, but he concentrates and mutters something in an unusual way to Frodo which is very spell-like in nature to restore Frodo's lost ability points. Cure Light Wounds? Lesser Restoration? Hard to say. When Glorfindel finds the Hobbits, he examines Frodo's wound intently and his mere touch restores Frodo's strength. Again, Cure Light Wounds? Lesser Restoration. It's hard to say from the story, but its clear something like magical healing is going on because it isn't anything like surgery (unless its psychic surgery) or first aid. He then tells Aragorn that the wound is grave and beyond his ability as a healer, and that Elrond is needed. Offstage, Elrond heals Frodo, bringing him back from the brink of death and presumably in D&D terms restoring lost levels (Frodo is being energy or ability drained on the way to becoming a wraith). Elrond then provides the newly enlarged adventuring party with the gift of a flask of Mirrovir, which seems to function as a multi-dose potion of cure light wounds. The party uses this gift liberally over the next few encounters. After fleeing Moria, Aragorn provides something like first aid to the injured Hobbits, but he also does more of his 'psychic healing' stuff (IIRC). Later, after the Hobbits have been captured by orcs, the Orcs dose them with something that appears to be an Orc made healing potion in D&D terms. When Gandalf meets Theoden, the encounter isn't very much like the movie version's obvious exorcism, but there is clearly some sort of mental and spiritual healing going on (which we infer from other places to be a magical kindling of the spirit using Gandalf's magic ring). Later, after the battle of Pelenor fields, Aragorn goes in secret to the houses of healing in Minas Tirith, where his magical lore gives him the ability to do far more than the merely learned healers stationed there. We again see Aragorn doing something like entering Dreams and psychic (or Shamanistic) healing in addition to his herbalism. Then, in one of the most important scenes in the book, sadly missing from the movie, after Aragorn leaves the Houses of Healing, word has gotten out in the city that the King has returned because the true king will be known by the fact that he has 'the hands of a healer'. This is really hugely important clue to Aragorn's status, and to understand it we have to know a bit of medieval lore, but for D&D purposes what we really need to know is that a Paladin's ability to 'lay on hands' and Aragorns ability to heal because he is the true king derive from the same medieval myths and stories. So we can infer from this that in D&D terms, what Aragorn has been doing is at least in part 'laying on hands'. Offstage, Aragorn goes throughout the city - having not slept for like 3 days already - and heals his injured subjects before himself going to bed in the morning.

The reason clerics are unknown in Middle Earth is pretty straight forward. The one god of Middle Earth, Illuvatar, is unrevealed to his Children (elves and men). Elves and men don't know Illuvatar, and they couldn't be his clerics even if they wanted to be. Noone really knows how to worship Illuvatar correctly, and so the only 'clerics' per say are the Maia that have actually met Illuvatar and thus know how to worship him. The Maia themselves, at least the uncorrupted ones, don't encourage thier own worship, because they know that they aren't actually gods but merely servants of the One God. (The do sorta act like Catholic Saints, in the since that they can petition god on your behalf.) Furthermore, Illuvatar hasn't authorized any clerics, and the closest we come to seeing a figure in that role is the rightful King of Numenor was allowed to on one day of the year act as a high priest of Illuvatar and offer up a prayer to him alone atop a mountain.

But no clerics don't mean no healing magic, just no clerics.

Great answer, to the point, with specific references and correct interpretations. Thanks for the post, Celebrim.

 

[MerricB]

Ok, this isn't really my question. One of my players brought it up. The question is basically, "Why does D&D require so much healing magic? Is it just to give the cleric player something to do?"

It's required by the structure of the game: PCs take damage, they must be healed to continue.

That healing magic is used (rather than another system) comes from the resource management aspect of D&D spellcasters: both wizards and clerics have a limited amount of spells that they must manage carefully.

Cheers!

 

[tempus edax rerum]

Ebb and Flow

I agree with the earlier poster who noted that healing seems to be built into the encounter mechanics, where a encounter CR equal to the party is supposed to drain approximately 1/4 of the party's resources. Healing magic makes that resource drain less painful - a few judicious healing spells and you're ready for another encounter without a night's rest. You're trading off spell slots for hit points.

Where that resource management aspect becomes important is in the pace of the game. If a group plays in such a way that they rush from combat encounter to combat encounter then it's probably better to have healing magic of some sort than to expend hit points. If combat encounters are spread apart in time then healing magic would be a less important resource. An example could be a game featuring lengthy, uneventful travel times (the caravan is NOT beset by bandits - shock!), mystery, or intrigue.

If dungeon crawling is an important part of a campaign, magic healing becomes more essential - there's a potential fight or deadly trap in nearly every room. Looking at places like Rappan Athuk, Maure Castle, or the Tomb or Horrors, I find it hard to imagine a party without magical healing surviving easily - unless the DM is going to be extra kind in allowing lengthy rest periods.

In my opinion, magic healing is built into the game mechanics as a very desirable option. You can opt not to use it but if you don't, you'll want to bring a lot of hit points to the table.

 

[Lanefan]

But at the core, DnD is a game of heroics. Rules for getting your limbs cut off have no place in the core DnD game because this would make players fearful of combat. Characters represent an investment of the player's time, energy, love and lazyness (losing the old character means creating a new one... ), having them deformed and mutilated in the rare occurances that already exist in the DnD game through illness, poison and magic is bad enough already. Healing encourages players to be daring... after all, most of the problems they encounter can be fixed, even death can be fixed.

I have to disagree with this, in that there needs to be a built-in expectation that Bad Things Will Happen...and if the player has put that much time into creating a character, you might want to look at streamlining your char-gen process.

There need to be some Bad Things that healing can't fix, or not at all easily. Limb loss is such a one.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Only if you're playing in something approaching real-time. Otherwise, "You rest in camp for two days, nursing your injuries. On the third day, as the sun rises...."

Except my crew would never do that. They'd roleplay their characters getting bored, they'd go exploring, find something bad, have it follow them back to camp...and then need to rest longer; lather, rinse, repeat.

Reminds me of one player's quote from my old game: "If we rest up and recuperate here long enough we'll all be dead."

Lanefan

 

[Ipissimus]

I have to disagree with this, in that there needs to be a built-in expectation that Bad Things Will Happen...and if the player has put that much time into creating a character, you might want to look at streamlining your char-gen process.

There need to be some Bad Things that healing can't fix, or not at all easily. Limb loss is such a one.

Lanefan

And alot of people agree with you, which is why DnD and a lot of other RPGs present expanded combat mechanics to deal with more realistic injuries. Just remember that you are running the risk of having your players bog down in combat-centric games, assuming you are the DM, you'll have to push them into combat after a few of them lose limbs or sensory organs.

Streamlining character generation doesn't really help. Players tend to gain a certain sentimentality over their characters, they become an investment of emotion particularly if they are getting involved in the game world. Yes, I have seen players spit the dummy over dead characters. Heck, I've seen them spit the dummy over being hit by a surprise attack they had no opportunity to defend against. Players develop swat-style tactics and a level of paranoia in an effort to counteract practically any possible encounter. Is this bad? No, it means they're involved with the game.

But it has certain side effects in my experience. Bogging the game down with indecision as they prepare to fight a powerful foe is one of them, even in high level groups with multiple clerics in regular DnD games. The goal of any combat is, after all, completing your objective with the minimum use of resources.

However, the average combat-centered DnD game is really a huge ego trip for the players... much like a holliwood action movie. Big explosions, blood everywhere, kung fu fighting, the works. You don't see too many heroes getting their limbs hacked off in the movies, they are the heroes after all, the people the audience has an emotional investment in. They can get hurt, they can bleed, they can be captured and tortured just to show how bad the bad guys really are. Then they get up, say something witty, dismember a thousand goons with various household appliances, and in the next scene they have a clean shirt.

Because we all want to lay the smackdown on the bad guy and be invincible. That's probably the basic appeal of DnD game as presented in core. But if you'd prefer to play gritty and realistic, hey you're catered for! I enjoy that style of game too. I'll take Sin City over Spy Kids any day... but in an RPG it's a little different, you have to cater to the needs of 5+ people and not all of them are going to take well to becoming permanently blinded or having both arms lopped off in every other session.

Should the players feel that their characters are in danger? Definitely, no matter which style you play. But crippling and debilitating injuries, while realistic, will detract from the fun of the game. As a hypothetical situation, imagine a player who's character is practically disabled every game. This player isn't going to feel good about playing the game any more, retiring a character or having them killed off often feels like failure to a player. Kick the puppy too many times and they won't come back, even sidelining a character a character in a hospital can become problematic. What does that player do if he's the only one convalescing? Play a different character? What if he doesn't want to play a different character? Do you give him an important NPC to run? What if he gets that NPC killed? Is it fair to make the rest of the party wait while his character recouperates? But the BBEG's nuke is set to go off in an hour, they can't afford to wait!

In one fell swoop, your game bogs down, the pace is lost and your players may be unhappy. Naturally, it falls to the DM, already heavily burdened, to be prepared for all these inevitable questions. They are certainly soluble but they are also problematic and there's no single answer.

I've played this sort of game a few times and I enjoy it immensely. I am an avid Call of Cthulhu player and, back when I was a noob at the game, the DM and the other players were happily experienced in the game already and made sure I knew that my character would likely go insane and get ripped apart by some reality-bending horror if I was really lucky. CoH really does teach you to take injury to a character in a philosophical manner, but then CoH isn't really a combat-centric game. Sure, you can try to fight Nyarlathotep... but you're not going to win. I would consider dialing back the combat a bit if I introduced serious injuries... heck, the standard dungeon crawl format isn't realistic anyway.