what might have the formative history of RPGs be without D&D? or would it have even happened?

[RealAlHazred]

ALL UR RPGS R BELONG TO GYGAX

That being said...

I knew of references to what might be some form of early wargame/tabletop RPGs in the 17th century. The first "modern wargame" would seem to be the game developed by Johann Hellwig in 1760. And HG Wells popularized miniatures gaming with Floor Games (1911) and Little Wars (1913).

Of course, the first of what we would probably recognize as games date to the middle of the 14th century in Europe. Earlier than that you had the Romans recreating mythical events in the Colliseum and children have probably been LARPing since there've been children, but as an entertainment where there was some abstract way to determine outcomes, it seems likely to have been invented by nobles in Britain, Spain, and Italy, who organized Round Table reenactments of important Arthurian stories during special occasions in which participants would imitate and take the names of Arthur and his knights. It seems from some sources that, while the overall event was scripted, there was room for improvisation; exactly how this was accomplished is unknown.

I am intrigued by @Umbran 's reference in another thread about even older LARPing in China, and would like to know more!

 

[Bedrockgames]

I am intrigued by @Umbran 's reference in another thread about even older LARPing in China, and would like to know more!

I don't know much about this game in particular, but I have seen a lot of references to very interesting social games when I was looking up stuff about the Song Dynasty period. The game in question is mentioned on the history of RPGs page on Wikipedia and the source is apparently this article (I just skimmed it and it seems a little dense so probably will take time if you want to read it: note you can get a free Jstor account using your email and it will give you 100 free articles or so).

Title of the article is Self, Sexuality, and Writing in Honglou meng by Angelina C. Yee

Also Honglou Meng (Dream of the Red Chamber) is from the 18th century so no idea if there is simply a passing reference to a Han Dynasty game or if the wiki article footnoted the wrong source

 

[RealAlHazred]

note you can get a free Jstor account using your email and it will give you 100 free articles or so)

Or, if you are as old as dirt, have been using Wikipedia for that long, and have done a metric buttload of edits, they'll give you access to JSTOR for free to continue doing your good work, i.e. article edits.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Or, if you are as old as dirt, have been using Wikipedia for that long, and have done a metric buttload of edits, they'll give you access to JSTOR for free to continue doing your good work, i.e. article edits.

Serendipity then. You can check if the footnote is correct and edit it if it is not

 

[Tonguez]

I've always wondered what the hobby would be like if En Garde had been first (and had better rules)

More swashbuckling adventure is good, and I'm sure there would quickly be additions for vampires and other setting appropriate monsters

 

[The Soloist]

The first RPG would have been about Disco, dance floors and interpersonal drama. The dm would be called the DJ. You would gain levels as a dancer until you finally had a big role in New York and became Name level. At which point you become a director, manage a troop of actors and their living accommodations, working on your next big production, hoping to save the world from monotony of daily life.

 

[Theory of Games]

Everybody would be playing Chainmail 12e?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I've always wondered what the hobby would be like if En Garde had been first (and had better rules)

More swashbuckling adventure is good, and I'm sure there would quickly be additions for vampires and other setting appropriate monsters

Maybe! I have previously argued that fantasy, while not inevitable, was a part of D&D's success.

Let's start with the basic question, before getting into the "good" and the "bad" of fantasy. Why? Why fantasy? The short and simple answer is similar to the reason we climb mountains- "Because it's there." The slightly longer reason is because of the historical antecedents- D&D was the first RPG. The early RPGs that followed were often either reactions to D&D (Bunnies & Burrows), or were, for the most part, house rules and expansions of the original D&D rules (Chivalry & Sorcery). The gestalt of the 70s, from Tolkien to Led Zeppelin to Baker-era Doctor Who to Star Wars (which was "A long time ago ..." and featured swords and wizar.... um, Jedi) was conducive to fantasy. There was definitely a first-mover advantage. But while that is all true, it isn't the entirety of the truth.

I would say (and I have said) that another reasons that fantasy predominates in the RPG world is because fantasy, moreso than any other genre, particularly lends itself to both the "campaign" and to the reward play loop (zero-to-hero) that so many people enjoy. In addition, while other genres have examples of group play (Science Fiction has Star Trek and the bridge crew, while Super Heroes has, inter alia, the Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy), few genres have such a well-entrenched (and copied) example like the Fellowship.

Arguably, it's an advantage that accrued from the beginning, and continues to be reinforced. Other RPGs do an excellent job at many aspects that fantasy RPGs can't or don't handle well, but the fantasy RPGs dominate for tables looking for long term, group play, zero-to-hero campaigns.

Source.

 

[Umbran]

3) There is nothing wrong with recognizing the significance of D&D.

Two things:
1) There is nothing wrong with recognizing the significance of air, either, but it doesn't usually need to come up.

2) Sometimes, there is something wrong with recognizing the significance of a dominant cultural element - when it minimizes or drowns out the cool bits of other elements! Like, it is already dominant. It doesn't need defending, and it has earned its own glory such that we don't always have to make sure it gloms more glory from others.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Two things:
1) There is nothing wrong with recognizing the significance of air, either, but it doesn't usually come up.

2) Sometimes, there is something wrong with recognizing the significance of a dominant cultural element - when it minimizes or drowns out the cool bits of other elements! Like, it is already dominant. It doesn't need defending, and it has earned its own glory such that we don't always have to make sure it gloms more glory from others.

Sure but a much more productive approach here is to talk about the games you want people to talk about. It doesn't have to be this zero sum game where we try to diminish the significance of D&D (like I said, all that does is make people more defensive about it). The solution to getting people to praise and talk about other RPGs, isn't to dwell on D&D getting glory, it is to give spotlight to other RPGS that aren't D&D