Does Dagger get Weapon Finesse for free?
- Thread starter vic20
- Start date
A quick search of the SRD turns up specific references to the Weapon Finesse feat in the description of: Spiked Chain, Dagger, Rapier, Unarmed Strike.
These are weapons that are not *small* weapons, even though two of them are light for the standard PC races. The redundancy is probably just for absolute clarity, in case someone is inclined to mistake small for light.
Of course the Spiked Gauntlet and Punching Dagger could have used the reduncancy as well. But perhaps the writers considered that the statement that "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack" would suffice to make it clear that it does qualify for Finesse. And frankly the Punching Dagger doesn't sound very Finessible to me, but that's niether here nor there.
Cheers.
These are weapons that are not *small* weapons, even though two of them are light for the standard PC races. The redundancy is probably just for absolute clarity, in case someone is inclined to mistake small for light.
Of course the Spiked Gauntlet and Punching Dagger could have used the reduncancy as well. But perhaps the writers considered that the statement that "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack" would suffice to make it clear that it does qualify for Finesse. And frankly the Punching Dagger doesn't sound very Finessible to me, but that's niether here nor there.
Cheers.
Read simply for what it sayd, this is saying you CAN use the weapon finesse feat for the dagger. This is not saying you GET the weapon finesse feat for the dagger.
read simply what is said and don't "divine" or "derive" out of it what is not there.
Probably because someone decided they wated to highlight this feature. possibly because, as tiny, the dagger works as such for any PC sized race, whereas the light mace will only work with finesse for some.
Its really hard to divine why they did not say it elsewhere. But, that understanding is not really necessary. After all, all they said was that you could use the weapon finesse feat... not that you got the weapon finesse feat.
Adding the word "got" where it was never present, is at best light a "liberal" reading.
And thus you learn the true value of threads on rules. you get exactly what you pay for. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hmmm... Let me try that again:
Petrosian: "Read simply for what it sayd, this is saying you CAN use the weapon finesse feat for the dagger. This is not saying you GET the weapon finesse feat for the dagger.
read simply what is said and don't "divine" or "derive" out of it what is not there."
Me: I didn't add ''get.' English is complex, and 'can' can easily mean 'enable' or 'activate' in this context. You obviously don't actually 'get' the feat, it just reads (to me) like the dagger can be modified by Dexterity rather than Strength.
Petrosian: "Probably because someone decided they wated to highlight this feature. possibly because, as tiny, the dagger works as such for any PC sized race, whereas the light mace will only work with finesse for some."
Me: That's a good point. I considered that possibility, then discarded it when the didn't grant the tiny punch dagger with the same qualities.
Petrosian: "And thus you learn the true value of threads on rules. you get exactly what you pay for."
Me: True enough. And then some. You guys are kinda harsh. I'm sure the word 'munchkin' gets thrown around a lot on the rules board; I just don't think that it applies to a player who makes a character who is proficient in longswords, greatswords, and shields but uses none of the above because they like the idea of a character that stabs monsters with a 1d4 knife...
I'm not arguing the rule anymore. Consensus opinion has weighed in, my DM will adjudicate the matter fairly, and I'll probably be dropping a feat to buy Weapon Finesse (dagger). I'm only saying that the PHB is worse than ambiguous here and the sad result is that I've got a character who has been using the dagger in an apparently illegal fashion for a year now.
Petrosian: "Read simply for what it sayd, this is saying you CAN use the weapon finesse feat for the dagger. This is not saying you GET the weapon finesse feat for the dagger.
read simply what is said and don't "divine" or "derive" out of it what is not there."
Me: I didn't add ''get.' English is complex, and 'can' can easily mean 'enable' or 'activate' in this context. You obviously don't actually 'get' the feat, it just reads (to me) like the dagger can be modified by Dexterity rather than Strength.
Petrosian: "Probably because someone decided they wated to highlight this feature. possibly because, as tiny, the dagger works as such for any PC sized race, whereas the light mace will only work with finesse for some."
Me: That's a good point. I considered that possibility, then discarded it when the didn't grant the tiny punch dagger with the same qualities.
Petrosian: "And thus you learn the true value of threads on rules. you get exactly what you pay for."
Me: True enough. And then some. You guys are kinda harsh. I'm sure the word 'munchkin' gets thrown around a lot on the rules board; I just don't think that it applies to a player who makes a character who is proficient in longswords, greatswords, and shields but uses none of the above because they like the idea of a character that stabs monsters with a 1d4 knife...
I'm not arguing the rule anymore. Consensus opinion has weighed in, my DM will adjudicate the matter fairly, and I'll probably be dropping a feat to buy Weapon Finesse (dagger). I'm only saying that the PHB is worse than ambiguous here and the sad result is that I've got a character who has been using the dagger in an apparently illegal fashion for a year now.
Storm Raven
First Post
Uruush said:
It is only ambiguous if you don't actually read the text of the PHB. It says "can", which means "to be able to". You are able to use Weapon Finesse with a dagger. It doesn't say you can use a dagger as if you had Weapon Finesse.
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kreynolds
First Post
Uruush said:
It can get pretty ugly sometimes, but try not to take it personal. Most of the time it only happens because someone got up on the wrong side of the bed that day.
Uruush said:
What seems to confuse people is when they don't have a solid grasp of the Weapon Finesse feat and how it applies to certain weapons. For example, a dagger is a light weapon, thus you can use Weapon Finesse with it. This is no special function of the dagger itself. Its only because it's light enough to do so. Same thing goes for the rapier, while even though it is a medium-size weapon, it's still light enough to use finesse with.
Making a mistake or misreading a rule is no big deal. It happens to everyone at some point.
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Yah, you can. But only after you use one of your feat slots and learn Weapon Finesse: Dagger.Uruush said:
The PHB is ambiguous in a lot of places, but the rule in question is absolutely clear. It is simply a clarification, stating that you can use Weapon Finesse on the dagger. If you automatically got that feat for free, it'd say so.
You think that?
I should introduce you to Osric, my munchkinized multiclass halfling rogue. He's proficient in a lot of things, but he normally attacks with a Tiny sap, for 1d4 points of subdual. (It's downsized to make it finessable. ph33r the halflings!)
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Chun-tzu
First Post
Uruush said:
Some of the above responses are a little harsh, and I hope you didn't take what I said too seriously. Although I was the first to say 'munchkin', I was describing that interpretation of the rule, because it just seemed the best word to describe it. You interpreted it in a way that took the vaguest ambiguity and turned it to the player's favor. Isn't that exactly what a true munchkin does, search the rules for anything that can be used to their advantage?
Anyway, if some of us came off as harsh, I hope that doesn't turn you off to these boards, because for the most part EN World is a great place for gamers to hang out.
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