Does defeating an NPC's cohort grant additional XP?

[Vraille Darkfang]

The Question should be....

Did the cohort make the encounter significantly more difficult? Just not in combat, either.

Unlike a Summoned Foe, this guy's been sitting around the whole time. He can help the leader plot/plan/slay.

I'd look at him as a 'bump' to the Orginal's CR (EL) than as a seperate entity.

Much like if you give the Bag Guy Twice the reccomended amoutn of gear, it'd up the CR by one or two.

As somebody else pointed out, I'd just up the main bad guy's CR 1-3 (depending) and figure out the XP from there.

 

[Storm Raven]

You need support to not grant XP. Otherwise, the cohort is a challenge defeated and thus XP should be awarded. It's much more analogous to the BBEG using a craft skill and some money to create a fancy trap. Do you award XP for the trap that was overcome? Of course.

Of course, the BBEG doesn't have that trap rather than Greater Spell Focus either. A cohort is a "class feature" granted by a feat. If the BBEG had taken another feat, it would not have changed his CR or EL, taking Leadership doesn't either. The cohort does not grant XP because his value is already folded into the value of the guy with the Leadership feat. Doing otherwise is double-counting the cohort's value.

 

[Garboshnik]

RAW aside, the benefit you gain from a cohort through the Leadership feat is far more powerful than what any other feat will give you. I don't think it was ever intended to be balanced against other feats and probably shouldn't be treated in the same manner.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Of course, the BBEG doesn't have that trap rather than Greater Spell Focus either. A cohort is a "class feature" granted by a feat. If the BBEG had taken another feat, it would not have changed his CR or EL, taking Leadership doesn't either. The cohort does not grant XP because his value is already folded into the value of the guy with the Leadership feat. Doing otherwise is double-counting the cohort's value.

Now that would be fun.

Have a high level baddie with a really high Charisma and Cohorts and followers out the wazoo. The party never actually fights HIM, just his followers.

You NEVER have to give the PC's experience, since the haven't 'defeated' the villian yet.

Seriously. CR does not take into account the vaule of an NPC. The CR is based off a set of standards (Normal Array, Standard Classes, Normal Gear). Class level = CR level is just a broad guideline. The actual NPC could be more (or less) powerful than that. A mage who has lots of Skill Focus (knowledge) is not as nasty as one who has taken Meta Magic Feats & pumped to the max. Leadership is a feat that has a lot of variability.

While you don't award extra XP based on the Cohort itself, his presence can really increase the power of the Main Bad Guy, thus elevating his CR.

In his example, assuming other things are book normal, the 11th level Villians CR should be 12 or maybe 13.

Challenge Rating is a guideline, not an exact math formula. Thus no CR is completly 'correct'.

 

[Mistwell]

You get the experience for the cohort. The cohort itself is NOT a class feature. The class feature simply describes the relationship between the person serving as a cohort and the person with the leadership feat. It does not in any way describe the relationship between the PCs and the person serving as a cohort.

The cohort feat grants the person with the leadership feat the benefits of LOYALTY, DEVOTION, AND ASSISTANCE of the cohort. So, for example, if two NPCs were in a dungeon, and one took the leadership feat and "attracted" the other as a cohort, he gains the benefit of that other NPCs loyalty, devotion and assistance. However, the cohort is still the same as they were before the leadership feat, with regard to the PCs. It's not like the NPC who took the feat gained nothing by it...they now have a level of lotalty, devotion, and assistance from someone that they didn't have before. However, the challenge the cohort poses to the party hasn't changed, and is not itself a feature granted by the leadership feat.

Unlike summoned creatures, the cohort does not take any actions of the person with the leadership feat during battle, cannot be dispelled, does not go away or become less of a threat when the person with the leadership feat is killed, gains experience points, and is in every single way the same as any other opponant.

The closest corallary to a cohort is a trap, not a summoned creature. The trap is made by someone with the trapmaking skills (a "class feature"). And for people claiming "but it doesn't take a feat", I seriously doubt your opinion changes if the person who makes the trap had Skill Focus: Trapmaking as a feat. That person with the skill might well be an opponant somewhere in that dungeon. However, the PCs will definitely get experience points for overcoming the challenge of the trap, and for the person with the trapmaking skill if they encounter them as well.

 

[Storm Raven]

The closest corallary to a cohort is a trap, not a summoned creature. The trap is made by someone with the trapmaking skills (a "class feature"). And for people claiming "but it doesn't take a feat", I seriously doubt your opinion changes if the person who makes the trap had Skill Focus: Trapmaking as a feat. That person with the skill might well be an opponant somewhere in that dungeon. However, the PCs will definitely get experience points for overcoming the challenge of the trap, and for the person with the trapmaking skill if they encounter them as well.

No, the closest corollary to a cohort is a different feat. Suppose the BBEG takes Power Attack instead of Leadership. Does the party get extra XP for defeating the BBEG because he has Power Attack? (Or Skill Focus, or Widen Spell, and so on). If not, why would they gain extra XP because he took Leadership instead?

 

[Storm Raven]

Now that would be fun.

Have a high level baddie with a really high Charisma and Cohorts and followers out the wazoo. The party never actually fights HIM, just his followers.

You NEVER have to give the PC's experience, since the haven't 'defeated' the villian yet.

For most BBEGs eligible to have lots of followers, those followers would not provide a party of adventurers with any experience anyway. If the BBEG is 10th level, and has a leadership score of 14 (i.e. he has an 18 Charisma), he would have 15 1st level followers, and 1 2nd level follower. A group of 9th or 10th level PCs facing the BBEG wouldn't get much (if any) experince for defeating the mooks anyway.

 

[Mistwell]

No, the closest corollary to a cohort is a different feat. Suppose the BBEG takes Power Attack instead of Leadership. Does the party get extra XP for defeating the BBEG because he has Power Attack? (Or Skill Focus, or Widen Spell, and so on). If not, why would they gain extra XP because he took Leadership instead?

They do not. The person serving as a cohort would have still be the exact same challenge to the PCs as before, if the leadership feat were never taken. However, the person serving as a cohort would not have been as loyal to the NPC with the feat, or as devoted, or offer as much assistance to them (though given their alignment and location, would have been a challenge to the PCs just the same). The leadership feat only changes the relationship between the two NPCs with regard to each other. The "feature" of the feat is that loyalty and assistance, NOT the existence of the cohort as a challenge to the party.

By the way, if you are going to continue to insist the "lost feat" is the major issue, you are going to have to respond to the Skill Focus: Trapmaking example. Do you suddenly eliminate all experience granted for overcoming the challenge of a trap made with the assistance of the Skill Focus: Trapmaking feat, if the trapmaker is also an encounter for the PCs?

 

[Storm Raven]

They do not. The person serving as a cohort would have still be the exact same challenge to the PCs as before, if the leadership feat were never taken. However, the person serving as a cohort would not have been as loyal to the NPC with the feat, or as devoted, or offer as much assistance to them (though given their alignment and location, would have been a challenge to the PCs just the same). The leadership feat only changes the relationship between the two NPCs with regard to each other. The "feature" of the feat is that loyalty and assistance, NOT the existence of the cohort as a challenge to the party.

Wrong. The existence of the feat causes the cohort to be present, at all. And more to the point it costs the BBEG a resource he could otherwise use to challenge the PCs in another way. You keep overlooking the cost that taking the feat imposes. That's why there is no XP for a cohort, because it makes the BBEG less effective on his own than he would otherwise be.

None of your "counterexamples" require giving up a resource that could be used to otherwise challenge the party. Hence, your arguments are based on flawed grounds, and are of no value.

 

[Storm Raven]

By the way, if you are going to continue to insist the "lost feat" is the major issue, you are going to have to respond to the Skill Focus: Trapmaking example. Do you suddenly eliminate all experience granted for overcoming the challenge of a trap made with the assistance of the Skill Focus: Trapmaking feat, if the trapmaker is also an encounter for the PCs?

No, I'm not. Why? Because it is a ludicrous canard of no substance.