Does defeating an NPC's cohort grant additional XP?

[irdeggman]

I see it this way: a cohort can earn experience, so you get experience for defeating one. You earn less experience if you have a cohort helping you (they get a 1/2 share), so they should be figured into EL and have CRs of their own.

Only if you are still playing 3.0.

in 3.5:

Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.

Cohorts earn XP as follows:
The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).
Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.

Cohorts do not detract as if they were an additional party member - hence why would they yield experience. They are now hard-wired into the PC whose cohort they are.



From an e-mail from WotC cust serv (I couldn't get the Sage to ever respond on this topic):

Man. This just isn't my mail I did intend to say that the cohort does NOT cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience. You write in for an answer and I just go making it more confusing.

It is possible to have multiple cohorts, just not at the same time. So if you have a cohort, and then your cohort dies, you can then get another cohort. At this point you have had multiple cohorts and that is the plural that the section on page 104 is referring to. I can definitely see how it can be confusing. But the intention is for 1 cohort. Good gaming!

Travis
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/13/105

-----Original Message-----

Thanks again for the reply and the time you are taking with me. When I looked over my original response I noticed it was rather brash and insulting. I didn't mean it to be that way, sorry for the wording.

I assume you meant to say ".. .does not cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience." (Stupid computers not keeping up with our hands/minds.) Since the method written states not to count them (cohorts) when determining XP awards for individual characters. The 3.5 formula has the individual award determined on an individual character basis (using their level and the CR of the opponent/trap and then dividing by the total number of characters present. It is this last number (the one in the denominator) that is not to include any cohorts present, so they never detract from the amount of XP awarded to characters they only allow a greater amount of XP to be awarded. Still seems kind of broke to me, but what the heck. I thought the method in 3.0 was better for this issue (cohorts counted as a half character when determining XP awards).

As far as only gaining 1 cohort, I can understand the logic but it still seems to be a gut-feeling call that is repeated whenever the question is asked. I guess the real question is then what is meant by the statement on pg 104 of the DMG "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character."? This is the same text that was in 3.0. It is a very clear, concise and complete statement and there are no other statements in the DMG that contradict this when referring to cohorts. As far as reading this out of context, I don't see how that can be done since it is 1/3 (one sentence out of three) of the paragraph it comes from and paragraphs are supposed to divide separate thoughts/concepts when writing. But there might have been something that was intended to be said that didn't make it into print, which would expound on this statement and help clarify the intent.



Again thanks for the time and effort you are putting into this.
dtd 1/13/05


-----Original Message-----
From: Wizards Customer Service [ mailto:custserv@wizards.com


Yeah, totally forgot about the weird cohort experience rules, you're right. And the method is what was intended. The party's level goes up for determining encounters, but the cohort does cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience. Again, it is written as intended. Sorry about the confusion.

Travis
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/12/05

-----Original Message-----

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think you read the wording in the DMG under experience for cohorts.

3. Actually, if you look under the subheading "Attracting Cohorts" on page 106 of the 3.5 DMG, it states that Cohorts is effectively another PC under that player's control, "one who share of xp, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters." So the cohort does take his share of the xp and does raise the party's level.

1 - under experience points on pg 104 "Don't include a cohort as a party member when determining the XP awards for individual characters." It then goes into the formula for awarding a cohort experience, but they do not count in the awarding of PCs experience while they do raise the party's level for determining encounters.


dtd 1/12/05
-----Original Message-----
From: Wizards Customer Service [ mailto:custserv@wizards.com


1. You can only have one cohort at a time with the leadership feat. You can have a number of other followers as detailed on page 106 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, but you only ever have one cohort.

2. You only gain the benefits from the leadership feat once, so if you take it multiple times, the effects would not stack. There is no reason to take the feat more than once.

3. Actually, if you look under the subheading "Attracting Cohorts" on page 106 of the 3.5 DMG, it states that Cohorts is effectively another PC under that player's control, "one who share of xp, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters." So the cohort does take his share of the xp and does raise the party's level.

I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!

Travis
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/12/05

-----Original Message-----

Based upon some quite energetic discussions with some fellow gamers, I have some questions on cohorts and the Leadership feat. I haven’t seen any clarification on these topics in the past so any guidance/advice/ruling would be greatly appreciated.


1. How many cohorts can a character with the leadership feat have at one time?

The DMG pg 104 seems to imply that there is no limit, although some are reading it as a character can replace cohorts who leave or die an unlimited number of times but can only have one cohort at a time. There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a characters cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character. This seems to echo the 2nd ed rules that had henchmen precursor to cohorts and the number allowed based on the characters charisma score while followers replaced men-at-arms I think that is what they were called as listed under fighter, thief and cleric classes

2. Can this feat be taken more than once?

This is not included in the description of the feat, which is the norm. If a character is limited to only one cohort at a time can this number be increased by repetitive acquisition of the Leadership feat?


3. Is the method for determining experience for cohorts and factoring them into the experience distribution as written in the DMG really what was intended by the rules or did something get messed up during the final editing/compilation of the book?

Cohorts are counted when determining the party level for encounters. They are not counted when awarding experience, they get a different rate that doesn’t detract from the experience point awards. pg 104/105 Don’t include a cohort as a party member when determining the XP awards for individual characters. A cohort gains XP equal to cohort level/leaders level times the leader’s XP award. So what essentially happens is that by bringing along cohorts the party can survive encounters of higher levels, gaining higher experience point awards with no additional risk involved. In 3.0 the cohort did take from the XP pool available, but at 1/2 the rate a normal player character would. This really gets distorted if there is no limit to the number of cohorts a character can have see question 1 above. This seems to be a broken game mechanic and is, at least on the surface, unbalanced.

dtd 1/12/05

 

[irdeggman]

It is not the same as a summoned creature. It is totally different. It may be the result of a feat, but the cohort is not the result of a spell. The PC's gain XP for defeating the cohort.

But the cohort like an animal companion and a familiar has its "level" determined by the PC with who they are associated.

They do not earn experience for themselves only as based on the PC. hence my comparison.

 

[werk]

But the cohort like an animal companion and a familiar has its "level" determined by the PC with who they are associated.

They do not earn experience for themselves only as based on the PC. hence my comparison.

I see where you are going, but where does it say that you don't count XP from familiars/companions?

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

For most BBEGs eligible to have lots of followers, those followers would not provide a party of adventurers with any experience anyway. If the BBEG is 10th level, and has a leadership score of 14 (i.e. he has an 18 Charisma), he would have 15 1st level followers, and 1 2nd level follower. A group of 9th or 10th level PCs facing the BBEG wouldn't get much (if any) experince for defeating the mooks anyway.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 20th level Orc Sorcerer with a 30 Charisma.

And 1st level PC's.

Imagine killing all those orcs and being told: "Sorry, no XP yet, they're just PART of the challenge, you haven't beaten the challenge yet."

You could have an entire campaign where 50% of the low level encounter yield 0 XP.

Just a way to Weasel onto your party.

But, really, ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL YOUR PARTY!!!!!!!!

Because, that is what you'll do if you refuse to give XP for the cohort. XP is based of Challenge Rating (or Encounter Level). If you refuse to take the cohort's presence into account when setting up the encounter, you'll have the party at a severe disadvantage.

In this case:

Party of 11th level characters fight 2 people, 1 11th level & 19th. The EL should be around 12-15 (depending). This should be a severe challenge for the party. Now, lets say mister 11 takes Leadership, and now Mr 9 is a cohort. Has anything changed? Not really. That feat didn't drop the EL to 11. If you plan on having a fair EL 11 Encounter & thorugh in a CR 9 bonus, don't blame me in you wind up with a lot of dead PC's.

This isn't about Experience. This is about CR & EL. Lots of things can change the EL (or CR) of an encounter. The Cohort changes the difficulty of the encounter. A change in difficutly leads to a change in EL/CR, thus leading to a change in XP earned.

In other words,

Screw CR. You are the DM, you should know your party better than some designer at WotC. Determine the Challenge according to your party's strengths & weaknesses, and adjust CR/EL/XP accordingly.

Or: a CR 11 is not always a CR 11. Learn this grasshopper, and road to good DM, you shall begin.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A cohort is a "class feature" granted by a feat. If the BBEG had taken another feat, it would not have changed his CR or EL, taking Leadership doesn't either. The cohort does not grant XP because his value is already folded into the value of the guy with the Leadership feat. Doing otherwise is double-counting the cohort's value.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Well, actually, there can, I'm exaggerating here. Anyway, a cohort is most certainly not a class feature and is not in any way, shape, or form "granted" to the character taking Leadership. What is actually granted by the feat is the ability to attract loyal companions and devoted followers. Per the text: "Having this feat enables the character to attract loyal companions and devoted followers, subordinates who assist her." You could very well have Leadership and yet never manage to get any cohorts. So, don't make the mistake of assuming that the cohort and followers themselves are auto-granted by the feat because they are not.

But the cohort like an animal companion and a familiar has its "level" determined by the PC with who they are associated.

They do not earn experience for themselves only as based on the PC. hence my comparison.

I understand that and the comparison is not an unreasonable one to attempt, but it is ultimately flawed. The animal companion/familiar is, in fact, a class feature and the class itself is balanced with the idea that the character will have that animal companion/familiar. Leadership, on the other hand, does not grant any such additional creature, only the ability to attract a creature. Another analogy besides the trap (which is so far the best analogy, if I say so myself) would be charm person. If you charm someone to help protect you, is that someone not consider XP for whoever your opponent is? Of course he is. By being charmed, he is not suddenly a "class feature" of the enemy wizard.

 

[Infiniti2000]

None of your "counterexamples" require giving up a resource that could be used to otherwise challenge the party. Hence, your arguments are based on flawed grounds, and are of no value.

That's a mighty strong stance to take in the face of my original example with the trap. I'll assume you just glanced over it. But, really, calling it a canard (word of the day) and that it takes no resources means you just didn't read it. Care to try again?

 

[irdeggman]

Nothing could be further from the truth. Well, actually, there can, I'm exaggerating here. Anyway, a cohort is most certainly not a class feature and is not in any way, shape, or form "granted" to the character taking Leadership. What is actually granted by the feat is the ability to attract loyal companions and devoted followers. Per the text: "Having this feat enables the character to attract loyal companions and devoted followers, subordinates who assist her." You could very well have Leadership and yet never manage to get any cohorts. So, don't make the mistake of assuming that the cohort and followers themselves are auto-granted by the feat because they are not.
I understand that and the comparison is not an unreasonable one to attempt, but it is ultimately flawed. The animal companion/familiar is, in fact, a class feature and the class itself is balanced with the idea that the character will have that animal companion/familiar. Leadership, on the other hand, does not grant any such additional creature, only the ability to attract a creature. Another analogy besides the trap (which is so far the best analogy, if I say so myself) would be charm person. If you charm someone to help protect you, is that someone not consider XP for whoever your opponent is? Of course he is. By being charmed, he is not suddenly a "class feature" of the enemy wizard.

So how about the Improved Familiar feat? Should the 'better' familiar now count as its own challenge for xp?

 

[irdeggman]

I was thinking more along the lines of the 20th level Orc Sorcerer with a 30 Charisma.

And 1st level PC's.

A 20th level sorcerer's familair will kick a 1st level party's butt all by its lonesome.

 

[irdeggman]

That's a mighty strong stance to take in the face of my original example with the trap. I'll assume you just glanced over it. But, really, calling it a canard (word of the day) and that it takes no resources means you just didn't read it. Care to try again?

Interesting point. I guess the same would apply to any magic item since they all require a "feat" to make.

So a 5th level wizard with a wand of fireballs (which he made himself) should be a higher level challenge than a 5th level wizard who instead spent his feat on empower spell?

The difference between traps and items and cohorts are that in order to create them and "additional" expenditure of other assets is required. Magic items require gp and xp traps require gp.

In order to gain a cohort (note that the feat grants only one a single cohort at a time {I don't agree with this ruling, but see my response rom the WoT Cust Serv combined with the same thing others have gotten from different sources in the WotC chain}) only requires the feat (and of course a DM who isn't out to mess with a player by not allowing him to have a cohort). Leadership is not a bonus feat for any of the core classes and so requires expenditure of a character level feat - a bit more restrictive and expensive in the long run.

 

[Mistwell]

Wrong. The existence of the feat causes the cohort to be present, at all. And more to the point it costs the BBEG a resource he could otherwise use to challenge the PCs in another way. You keep overlooking the cost that taking the feat imposes. That's why there is no XP for a cohort, because it makes the BBEG less effective on his own than he would otherwise be.

None of your "counterexamples" require giving up a resource that could be used to otherwise challenge the party. Hence, your arguments are based on flawed grounds, and are of no value.

Sigh.

Okay, I'll start by not letting you avoid the question. Skill Focus: trapmaking is used by an NPC in the making of a trap. The PCs overcome the trap. The PCs overcome the tramaker as well. Do the PCs in your game get experience for overcoming just the NPC, just the trap, or both?

I'll deal with the rest of it after you answer that question.