5E Does Dispel Magic work on Banishment?

We had a scenario come up yesterday and the group didn't really come to an agreement on the answer, nor could we find an answer online.

The PC wizard cast Banishment on a demon and successfully banished it to the Abyss. Then, knowing that 10 rounds of concentration were required to make it permanent, the wizard ducked out of sight from the rest of the battle. In the next round, an evil wizard (allied with the demon) cast Dispel Magic to remove the Banishment.

1) Is this legal? (i.e., does DM work on Banishment during the 10 rounds before it becomes permanent)

2) If the answer is Yes, where is the magical effect located that needs to be targeted? Is it the space where the banishment occurs or is it the person of the concentrating spell caster?

My thought was 1) No (the spell is basically akin to Teleport and cannot be dispelled) and 2) Even if the spell could be dispelled, the locus of effect is the person concentrating on the spell as there is nothing to effect in the space where the demon vacated.

Our DM thought 1) Yes (the spell is basically akin to an involuntary Gate that sucks things away) and 2) The locus of effect is the space where the (admittedly invisible and closed) Gate is located.

[Note: both of us agreed that Banishment could be countered by Counter Spell at the moment of casting, but that isn't the scenario here].

Curious on people's thoughts here.
 
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thethain

Villager
I would rule it is effectively immune to dispel.

If you happened to be able to get to where the demon is on another plane, you could dispel it, but since the creature is more than 120ft away, dispel doesn't help.

Reason: Banish targeted the creature, not the area. If you had say, cast a spell which banished all creatures in the area, and continued to do so for the duration (in case another moved into the area) then you could dispel that area-effect banish.
 

thethain

Villager
Also for the same reason, if you banished something that had dispel magic prepared, it could end it on itself. Since it isn't incapacitated on its home plane, it could attempt to dispel itself each round.
 

Capn Charlie

Villager
As long as we're on the topic. Can you use Dispel Magic against a Familiar?
I would argue that the familiar is conjured by magic but now exists physically until destroyed. Summon spells without a permanent duration, probably, yeah. Undead being animated, I would think it would snip their strings like marionettes.
 

CydKnight

Explorer
My interpretation is that the only thing that can prevent the Banishment spell from completion would be Counterspell or loss of concentration within the time frame required to make the spell permanent. Assuming you are banishing a creature back to it's original plane of existence:

From the PHB page 217: If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn’t return.
 

Capn Charlie

Villager
My interpretation is that the only thing that can prevent the Banishment spell from completion would be Counterspell or loss of concentration within the time frame required to make the spell permanent. Assuming you are banishing a creature back to it's original plane of existence:

From the PHB page 217: If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn’t return.
This is an interesting point, could there be a counterspell usage or variant that just knocks out concentration of an ongoing spell? It would make sense that some mage had came up with this.
 

CydKnight

Explorer
Amending my previous post, my interpretation of Dispel Magic could allow the Banishment spell to end prematurely however, my interpretation of both spells would mean the effect that is being dispelled is the creature which is now in another plane.
 
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thethain

Villager
As long as we're on the topic. Can you use Dispel Magic against a Familiar?
Instantaneous effects are typically immune to dispel. You can't dispel the damage dealt from a fireball, or healed through cure wounds. Or teleport someone back away who just landed here with teleport or planar travel (unless the effect is ongoing)

Edit: RAW if the spell is instantaneous, it inherently can't be dispelled.

Instantaneous
Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can't be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant.
 
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DMMike

Game Masticator
Our DM thought 1) Yes (the spell is basically akin to an involuntary Gate that sucks things away) and 2) The locus of effect is the space where the (admittedly invisible and closed) Gate is located.
This is the answer for two reasons:

1) 5th edition endorses rulings, not rules.

2) Despite that, Rule Zero.
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
During a game, the DM is always right. Even if they're wrong. Hopefully they will listen to other people's opinion, but sometimes there is just no "right" answer.

I don't have a problem with you're DM's ruling and how he envisions the spell working is completely legitimate. I may have ruled differently, that the magic was on the demon and someone on his plane would have had to cast the dispel. But I'm not the DM so my opinion doesn't really matter.
 

Arial Black

Explorer
Dispel magic must be cast at a creature, object, or magical effect within 120ft of the caster.

If successful, then any spell on the target ends.

Banishment has a target: the creature you banish. Therefore that creature must be the target of the dispel for the dispel to have a chance. In this case the target is out of reach so cannot be dispelled by the enemy caster in the given scenario.

Find familiar's duration has already ended (its duration is instantaneous). Since the only thing dispel magic does is end a spell, then it is useless against any spell that has already ended.
 

Arial Black

Explorer
During a game, the DM is always right. Even if they're wrong. Hopefully they will listen to other people's opinion, but sometimes there is just no "right" answer.
Sometimes there is a right answer. All 'rule zero' does is allow the DM to ignore the right answer.

In a rules forum it is totally okay to work out the correct answers. Knowing that 'rule zero' exists doesn't prevent both players and DMs wanting to understand what the rules actually are, so that if and when they want to use rule zero they can make an informed choice.
 

thethain

Villager
Sometimes there is a right answer. All 'rule zero' does is allow the DM to ignore the right answer.

In a rules forum it is totally okay to work out the correct answers. Knowing that 'rule zero' exists doesn't prevent both players and DMs wanting to understand what the rules actually are, so that if and when they want to use rule zero they can make an informed choice.
Thank you, I see rule 0 brought up so many times. Rule 0 means the DM is free to adjust the rules to fit the game in session. It doesn't mean the DM shouldn't bother to even attempt to get a handle on the rules. Players spend a lot of time building their characters around both RP concepts and gameplay concepts, changing either of those on the fly can be disheartening to a player and cause them to lose their sense of investment in their character.

Rule 0 says you can say "Your paladin murders all the defenseless people in the dungeon" but guess what? The player is going to protest. Similarly if you rule in the middle of a game "Finesse weapons only apply to attack rolls instead of damage because I like how 3.5 did it" again, you are 100% rule 0 allowed to say that, but expect players to be upset.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Sometimes there is a right answer. All 'rule zero' does is allow the DM to ignore the right answer.

In a rules forum it is totally okay to work out the correct answers. Knowing that 'rule zero' exists doesn't prevent both players and DMs wanting to understand what the rules actually are, so that if and when they want to use rule zero they can make an informed choice.
Limited rules discussions during the game are perfectly OK. Longer discussions after the game are also fine. But at some point the DM is always correct.

I don't disagree with your ruling, and I think it's probably the correct one as do several others. I didn't think I needed to restate what several other people had already stated.

As a DM, it's my prerogative to ignore other people's opinions and to change the rules to match my vision of the game. Hopefully that's all done with input from my players and even random people on a message board. But if I say that the spell works slightly differently in my campaign then it does.
 

Gwarok

Villager
This is a good question. I'd rule that no, it couldn't be dispelled since the target of the spell is no longer there to be targeted by the dispel. There is magic affecting the creature banished, just as there is magic affecting someone with say, Haste on them. But if the creature with the magic on them isn't there to be targeted, you could no more dispel the Banishment on it than you could dispel Haste on a creature that isn't there to be targeted.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
As long as we're on the topic. Can you use Dispel Magic against a Familiar?
No. Dispel Magic affects a spell. The Find Familiar spell takes an hour to cast and has an instantaneous duration, leaving you with a Familiar. There is no ongoing spell to dispel.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
This is an interesting point, could there be a counterspell usage or variant that just knocks out concentration of an ongoing spell? It would make sense that some mage had came up with this.
They have, it's called "anything with damage". Thogh if you wanted a specific spell that broke concentration that seems fun to make.

Ooh, or a pain inducing poison that adds to the DC of concentration checks for a few rounds after it has been administered.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
1) Is this legal?
Absolutely. Dispel Magic targets creatures, objects, and magical effects. Like Haste and Invisibility, Banishment is an ongoing magical effect.

2) If the answer is Yes, where is the magical effect located that needs to be targeted? Is it the space where the banishment occurs or is it the person of the concentrating spell caster?
That's up to the DM, but likely answers are (1) the point where the creature disappeared, (2) the creature's current location, or (3) the caster's current location. Personally, I'd opt for #1, if not all three.

This is an interesting point, could there be a counterspell usage or variant that just knocks out concentration of an ongoing spell?
The spell you're looking for is called Magic Missile. :)
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Also for the same reason, if you banished something that had dispel magic prepared, it could end it on itself. Since it isn't incapacitated on its home plane, it could attempt to dispel itself each round.
Actually, Banishment specifically calls out that the target is incapacitated. Second paragraph.
 

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