Does DnD encourage racist thinking?

[Orias]

Yes, I do think that there is racism in D&D, particually the Realms. Do I think that this encourages such thinking? No, I don't. If anything, I think it shows how stupid it is. If you've ever had an elf in your party cross his arms & pout because of a human, or a Rashamen character constantly insulting a character who spent a few years in Thay, you can easily see that there is no clear reason for racism in the real life, because you are able to view it as a huge, petty thing in role playing.

None the less, if you are able to distinguish it as bad in real life, I think it can be quite enjoyable to play a racist character in the game. As with the strengths of the characters, the weaknesses of any character is fun to role play out, be it racism, stupidity, the fear of the color purple, talking to a mini-space Hamster (Boo says "WHAT!?"), or anything like that.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: Species definitions

"You do realize, don't you, that those two statements are incompatible? If humans can interbreed with elves and orcs, then they -- by definition -- can be sub-species of the same species at the most, if even that."

Well, yes, but elves and orcs can't interbreed with each other...at least not in the core rulebooks, so clearly they're not in the same species at all.
With the right feats, of course, you could create an elf-blooded half-orc, but I think that would probably be pretty silly and not the same mechanical implementation of the situation at all.

Ah, the perils of taxonomy! Of course, if you look at your Tolkienien roots, a lot of folks (not me, however) believe that orcs are just corrupted elves, so the fact that there aren't any elf/orc crossbreeds is a cultural trait, not a biological one. Which, I think, would qualify them as separate sub-species -- technically capable of producing viable offspring yet not doing so under normal circumstances. The fact that most subspecies are separated by geographical boundaries might even be at work in most campaign settings!

 

[LostSoul]

In that sense, yes, D&D can often be racist. Orcs and goblins are inherently inferior to, say, elves or dwarves.

That's not necessarily true. Orcs are strong, but a little slow-witted and not very social. Goblins are small and thus weak, but they are just as smart and wise (and thus just as resourceful) as humans, elves, and dwarves. Now, they are Evil, but that's just to give us something to fight. They don't have to be Evil. And there isn't any difference between Evil orcs, goblins, elves, or humans.

edit: that being said, yes, D&D is racist.

 

[Psion]

IRL we know it's racist to attribute characteristics to a person just because of their skin clour or other gross biological features.

But in gaming, we happily make dwarves good at mining; elves flighty and frivolous; orcs and mind flayers are evil; green dragons are evil - blue dragons are good.

So, is this racist thinking? Could it be changed? How? Is it even a problem? Am I just asking a really dumb question?

AFAIC, racist is the false application of stereotypes. If I say all green dragons are evil and stronger than humans, that is not a racial stereotype. Within the mileu of the game, that is a fact. I don't even think the situation is comporable.

 

[WayneLigon]

You do realize, don't you, that those two statements are incompatible?

Nope, because it's a demonstrated fact that it can happen. Let's not get off into fantasy genetics; that always just ends in tears.

 

[med stud]

From a strict POV, D&D is racist. Racism is the "science" that races got different traits, and that leads to the conclusion that one race has to be superior and one must be inferior. The ECL system of D&D shows that there are, in fact, superior races.

But racism is such a strong word that it is wrong to use it in any context. It's like the swastica, which is a symbol for the sun, but is unusable in the Western civilisation because of the deeds of an Austrian painter.

 

[Turlogh]

[green dragons are evil - blue dragons are good. [/B][/QUOTE]

Blue Dragons are evil dammit

I think that D&D plays more off of fantasy stereotypes than racism. As others have pointed out it would more accurately be "specieism" (is this a word?).

D&D is really a black and white game of good vs. evil with a few neutral races thrown in to spice things up a little.

 

[Kamard]

Poor svastika. Its such a nice symbol too. !!!!ing racists.

In any case, I feel most D&D campaigns are racist in that a lot of the races have "evil me" shadows. Like the drow, and duergar, and spriggans. Theres no "I am evil human" exactly.

*quiet, those who've read the Book of Vile Darkness...*

These evil shadows are always evil, and thus we always get to murder them heartily and laugh over their corpses as we loot them.

I hate that. I hate it when "good" players stab the troglodyte in the back as it goes back to get its lord, having surrendered in good faith, because "its chaotic and evil."

I hate it when an elf ranger kills a whole tribe of orcish women and children because "they'll grow up evil."

Thus I don't tend to have a lot of humanoids in my game, if I can help it. You want to murder ^H^H^H^H^H^H nobly slay somethings that look vaguely human, go for the real deal.

 

[SemperJase]

Something overlooked is that "elves", "dwarves", and "orcs" symbolically represent HUMAN archetypes, not races. In the range folklore and fiction that these characters are drawn from, they are used to illustrate aspects of humanity (also a common complaint of roleplayers claiming these "races" are unoriginal).

Although over time, these races have changed symbolically (dwarves were evil in early folklore), they have generally settled into consistent representations. Dwarves represent concepts of duty. Elves represent spiritual aspects of humanity (love of nature, art, and creation). Orcs represent greed and the destructive side of humanity.

So, don't think of it as racist. Think of it as symbolism.

 

[boxstop7]

A few points...

What you're talking about isn't technically racism. It's racial stereotyping, to be sure. But racism goes much, much deeper than mere stereotyping. Racism is not just a matter of attitudes or labels based on ascriptive status. Racism involves having the power to systematically discriminate through the major institutions of a society. Having said that, at the base of the matter I think D&D does have a lot of inherent stereotyped thinking. When people talk about racism being the notion that one race is superior to another, I think more "eugenics" than anything else.

Of course there's stereotyping in D&D. There's stereotyping wherever we go. Stereotypes, in and of themselves, are not necessarily bad things. They're simply a heuristic used by our brains to process information more quickly. It's when stereotypes are used to make inaccurate, blanket statements about large groups of people that we get into serious problems. It's the application of the stereotype that's important.

Do I think that the stereotyped thinking in D&D carries over into real life? Absolutely not. All too often I think people have a serious problem with this little thing called "suspension of disbelief". It's not real. Never has been, never will be. Someone could go nuts with the ideas presented by this thread and say "since there's 'racism' in D&D, all D&D players are racist b/c they support a gaming system that champions racist thinking...". Come on. Again, I repeat: It's not real. Being able to draw the line between fantasy and reality is a key part of our existence.

All in all, I don't think you're asking a "dumb question". You raise a valid and important point. The examples you give aren't racist thinking, but they could be viewed stereotypes-gone-wild. The differences between Dwarves, Elves, etc. are there to create flavor to the game. It's no different than saying gorillas are better at knuckle-walking and orangutans are better at brachiating. It's the way nature made 'em, and it's what they're best designed to do. Now if gorillas started calling orangutans "scruffy red brachiators" and the orangs started calling gorillas "big-headed knuckle-walkers", you're starting to get into borderline racism. Of course, if gorillas and orangs started talking, we'd all be in a heap of trouble anyway.

I'm glad to see there's a concsiousness among my fellow gamers. The awareness and sensitivity to these issues shows the humanity prevalent in this community. But don't think too hard about it. Awareness is one thing, obsession and paranoia are another.

Just my humble opinoin...

~Box