Does EVERY attack form have a critical?

[ElvishBard]

Isn't that the most important thing?

I think it is, which is why I am the DM and not a player, mwhahaha .

 

[RedShirtNo5]

This came up last night: can you critical on a grapple check? I remember there's been debate on whether it is an attack roll. Was there any consensus?

-RedShirt

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This came up last night: can you critical on a grapple check? I remember there's been debate on whether it is an attack roll. Was there any consensus?

IMO, it's not an attack roll. It's like an attack roll, but it's more analogous in operation to an opposed skill checks.

Accordingly, there's nothing special about 1s and 20s - including the lack of "critical" successes or failures.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree with Patryn. A raven has no chance to beat a t-rex.

 

[Mavnn]

I dunno - it could be fun.

Raven: I grab T-Rex's little stubby arm in my beak and apply a half-nelson.

T-Rex: Hahahahahahahaha!

Raven: *Rolls natural 20*

T-Rex: Hahahaha... ow!

 

[Jhulae]

Basically, if an attack does actual damage (whether it's HP, Ability, etc.) and not just imposes a penalty or condition (like Ray of Exhaustion, etc.), there's the possibility of a critical hit.

If no special crit range or multiplyer is given, as the rules say, it's 20/x2.

 

[kjenks]

Yes, you can critical on a grapple check (step 3 or Damage Your Opponent). It's like a melee attack. See the old 3e FAQ, page 45 for a precedent.

 

[Li Shenron]

AFAIK this is the correct general rule:

Basically, if an attack does actual damage (whether it's HP, Ability, etc.) and not just imposes a penalty or condition (like Ray of Exhaustion, etc.), there's the possibility of a critical hit.

If no special crit range or multiplyer is given, as the rules say, it's 20/x2.

As long as there is an attack roll and a damage, there can be criticals.

And "damage" means either a HP damage, ability damage or negative levels.

 

[werk]

I'm gonna side with patryn, that roll is not really an attack, it is your attack roll vs the opponent's attack roll. This makes it the same area as a skill check, in which there are no crits.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, you can critical on a grapple check (step 3 or Damage Your Opponent). It's like a melee attack. See the old 3e FAQ, page 45 for a precedent.

The problem, of course, is that it's the same grapple check on both sides of the equation - for both the defender and the attacker.

Ergo, if it *is* an attack roll for the attack, then it *is* an attack roll for the defender. 20s for either one should be treated the same, but then you end up with a contradiction:

• Hypothesis: A grapple check is an attack roll.
• Lemma: Attack rolls critically succeed on rolls of 20, and critically fail on rolls of 1.
• 1. If the attacker rolls a 20, he must critically win the grapple check (possibly doing double damage).
• 2. If the defender rolls a 20, he must critically win the grapple check, and take no damage.
• 3. If both the attacker and the defender roll 20s, then they must both critically succeed, so the attacker must do damage to the defender and the defender must take no damage from the attacker
• 4. If a grapple check is an attack roll, then it leads to contradiction.
• 5. Therefore, a grapple check is not an attack roll.

QED.

Of course, kjenks and I have gone back and forth on this numerous times, and neither of us will convince the other. So I'll stand over here, confident that I'm right, and he'll stand over there, confident that he's right, and we'll end up letting any given DM pick who's right in his or her campaign.