Does ghoul touch paralyze without a save?

[Urbannen]

That's my question. The spell description from SRD is as follows:

Ghoul Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living humanoid touched
Duration: 1d6+2 rounds
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack.
Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench.
Material Component: A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoul’s lair.

This is written strangely. The text says a successful melee touch paralyzes, and a Fortitude save protects from the sickening spell of a paralyzed victim. But the Saving Throw line doesn't deferentiate between the two effects.

What's the answer, rules gurus?

 

[Crothian]

I say fort save for the paralyzes.

 

[CRGreathouse]

My take:

If the subject saves he's not paralysed; there's no sickening.
If he fails, he's paralysed. Those around him can make Fort saves vs. the sickening.

 

[Majere]

As I understand it:
If the spell ment that there was no save against paralysis but a save against sickening then the line for saves would read
Save :Fort (See Text)

If in the save line there is just a saved listed then that relates directly to the priamary targets of the spell/those in the area oof the spell.

The save mentioned in the text applies to secondry targets.

Majere

 

[shilsen]

My take:

If the subject saves he's not paralysed; there's no sickening.
If he fails, he's paralysed. Those around him can make Fort saves vs. the sickening.

What he said.

 

[Scion]

-----------------------------
Ghoul Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living humanoid touched
Duration: 1d6+2 rounds
Spell Resistance: Yes

Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack.
------------------------------------------

If this was all the spell said (well, with save: none) there would be no debate As it is..

------------------------------------------
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench.
Material Component: A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoul’s lair.
------------------------------------------

Those seem to be completely seperate thoughts. Whether it is too strong that way or not, it still seems to be the way it is written. The first ability doesnt mention a save, the second ability does.

So, after a touch attack, spell resistance, check for immunity to paralysis, and, if all of those work out properly then the target is paralyzed for a few rounds.

Powerful, very powerful. Might need to be houseruled, but it definately looks like it paralyzes with no save.

Touch attacks often replace the save, nothing new there.

 

[Camarath]

Those seem to be completely seperate thoughts. Whether it is too strong that way or not, it still seems to be the way it is written. The first ability doesnt mention a save, the second ability does.

So, after a touch attack, spell resistance, check for immunity to paralysis, and, if all of those work out properly then the target is paralyzed for a few rounds.

A Fortitude Negates Saving Throw entry means that on a successful save the spell has no effect on the target (as per these rule form the SRD).

"SAVING THROW
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."

 

[WCrawford]

As I understand it:
If the spell ment that there was no save against paralysis but a save against sickening then the line for saves would read
Save :Fort (See Text)

If in the save line there is just a saved listed then that relates directly to the priamary targets of the spell/those in the area oof the spell.

The save mentioned in the text applies to secondry targets.

Majere

Actually it would read:

Save: Fortitude partial (see text)

But I'm just quibbling over semantics. :

 

[Darklone]

Touch attacks often replace the save, nothing new there.

IIRC, touch attacks replace Reflex saves... I can't think of one example where it replaces a Fort save.... while Poison for example combines a touch attack with a Fort save.

 

[Scion]

A Fortitude Negates Saving Throw entry means that on a successful save the spell has no effect on the target (as per these rule form the SRD).

Then either the text is missing something, the saveing throw needs to be changed to Save: fort negates (see text), or it is all correct in that there is a touch attack and then there is a fort save negates for the secondary effect.

Since the text usually has precidence over the blurb at the top of the spell then the save entry must be missing a couple of words.