Does Hide = invisibility?

[Dracuwulf]

That's a great explanation, thanks. Do hidden characters get +2 to attack like invisible characters do?

 

[silentspace]

I thought it worked like this (but have no proof or quotes ):

If you hide but are not moving, you remain hidden, keeping your hide check result vs. spot

If you hide but are moving, you need to make a hide check (and maybe move silently check) each round, with whatever modifiers the DM gives you for the situation. Like move silently, hide would tend to get harder the closer you get.

Hide <> Invisibility. I'd say you get attacking bonuses only under certain situations, like if the opponent is completely unaware of you until after your attack. If he's sitting in a corner with his back to a wall, and you sneak up to him, I'd say no bonus. You might get a surprise round, but no bonus.

That's what I'd tend to do, anyway.

You can also be hidden and invisible, though I'm not sure how that would work with the 20 DC spot check for invisibility.

 

[Urbannen]

Hiding does (or should) give you the same benefit as being invisible - +2 to attack and opponent loses Dex bonus to AC.

The reason invisible people get the +2 to hit and no opposing Dex is because their opponents can't see them. If a person has Hidden successfully from his opponents, likewise they can't see him and he should get the bonus.

 

[Celtavian]

re

That's a great explanation, thanks. Do hidden characters get +2 to attack like invisible characters do?

I believe all it does is give a standard action surprise round where the opponent is flat-footed. You are not actually invisible, but if the enemy fails a spot check they are unaware of you. That is how I run it.

If a person sneaks into a room without cover, then I decide whether the individual in the room has his back turned or not. If there back is turned, then I allow a Move Silently check opposed by a Listen check to sneak up on the person.

I don't give invisibility bonuses for Hide. Hide and Move Silently gain surprise. Invisibility bonuses are given even if the person is fully aware of you. With Hide and Move Silently, they generally have to be unaware of you for them to be effective. At least that is how I run it.

 

[Silveras]

Shayuri has it just about right, except that high level Rangers (and Shadowdancers) can hide without any cover/concealment, even when being watched. That's the benefit of Hide in Plain Sight. The Ranger's ability is specifically mentioned in the Hide skill description in the 3.5 PH.
Also, the PH mentions that being Invisible gives you +40 on your Hide check if you stand still, +20 if you are moving.
Further, it describes Sniping... if you have successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can take a shot (make 1 ranged attack) and then immediately attempt to Hide again (new roll) so as to remain hidden.

Sniping addresses only ranged attacks. It says nothing about melee attacks.

In general, this is an example of a rule that needs to start from common sense. Remember how you used to hide as a child ? The same basic laws of physics apply: if you come out from your hiding place, you are not hidden any more, and need to hide again. The game rules presume that the conditions for Hiding persist. You make Hide and Move Silently checks to move from hiding place to hiding place without being detected.

 

[Dracuwulf]

Here's something I found interesting. These are quotes for the ranger, assassin, and shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Notice that the Assassin and Shadowdancer have Hide in Plain Sight as a supernatural (magically-based) ability while the ranger does not. It seems like the ranger's is not really like the other two versions at all. He can only hide while being observed, but apparently he still must meet the requirements for cover or concealment, while the other two can apparently ignore that requirement.

OK here is a question. A Rogue using Hide is in a 30 x 30 room. The first 10 feet from each wall is under shadowy illumination, giving him concealment, while the rest of the room is brightly lit. Two humans are fighting in the center of the room.

Can the rogue move out of the shadowy illumination, into the brightly illuminated area where the two are fighting, and sneak attack one of them, as long as he does it in the same round he made the Hide check?

 

[pingpong]

Notice that the Assassin and Shadowdancer have Hide in Plain Sight as a supernatural (magically-based) ability while the ranger does not. It seems like the ranger's is not really like the other two versions at all. He can only hide while being observed, but apparently he still must meet the requirements for cover or concealment, while the other two can apparently ignore that requirement.

the Ranger gets Camouflage at 13th level, that allows him to ignore the need for Cover and Concealment while trying to hide in natural terrain.

so the Ranger's HiPS is sorta broken up over two abilities. but that is a good point about it being Ex and not Su.

 

[takyris]

Perhaps I've been doing this wrong. I only use Move Silently for situations where Line of Sight is not an issue -- ie, when I've said that the guard is facing the other way while looking out the window, when they're trying to sneak through another room, etc. Otherwise, Hide and Move Silently have almost no reason to not be just one skill -- other than the possible justification that they are too important to be bought with just one skill point per rank.

So, assuming that you have something to hide in/behind (like shadows in the corner), you move through that with hide.

I dunno. Maybe I'm full of it.

 

[Dracuwulf]

the Ranger gets Camouflage at 13th level, that allows him to ignore the need for Cover and Concealment while trying to hide in natural terrain.

so the Ranger's HiPS is sorta broken up over two abilities. but that is a good point about it being Ex and not Su.

Hmm what's weird is the Ranger's camouflage ability is EX. How does that work??? A ranger can hide in a featureless dessert in plain view without magical means????

 

[Silveras]

Here's something I found interesting. These are quotes for the ranger, assassin, and shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Notice that the Assassin and Shadowdancer have Hide in Plain Sight as a supernatural (magically-based) ability while the ranger does not. It seems like the ranger's is not really like the other two versions at all. He can only hide while being observed, but apparently he still must meet the requirements for cover or concealment, while the other two can apparently ignore that requirement.

The Hide skill says the Ranger does not need cover or concealment, but I think the general rule of "more specific references take precedence" in the Errata means that the description in the Ranger class feature is the one to use.

OK here is a question. A Rogue using Hide is in a 30 x 30 room. The first 10 feet from each wall is under shadowy illumination, giving him concealment, while the rest of the room is brightly lit. Two humans are fighting in the center of the room.

Can the rogue move out of the shadowy illumination, into the brightly illuminated area where the two are fighting, and sneak attack one of them, as long as he does it in the same round he made the Hide check?

Technically, no. Coming out into the light means he has left his hiding place, and revealed himself. He is no longer hidden, and does not get the benefit of the sneak attack damage.

You could house-rule otherwise, and say that with a successful Move Silently opposed by the target's Listen, he can get there in the same round and remain undetected.

The general idea, though, is that the Rogue would use the melee attack when the target was moving through the same shadows as the Rogue. Scene: Fred the Fighter has been told to go find Reggie the Rogue. Reggie was last seen in the dockside section of town. Fred is looking under the docks, and was stupid enough not to bring a lantern. Reggie is hiding in the shadows. As Fred passes next to Reggie, Fred does not see the hidden Rogue. Reggie makes an attack, and Fred's eye close, permanently.

Note, however, that in the example case the Rogue can stay in the shadows and throw a dagger. This a ranged sneak attack, and gets the sneak attack bonus damage. He can then make a new Hide check at -20 to return to hiding, and repeat the process next round.

Also, if the Rogue left the shadows and closed in on the target from the opposite side as the other fighter, the Rogue would get the sneak attack damage because the other fighter is flanking the target.