D&D 5E Does Leomund's Tiny Hut block Scrying?

[jgsugden]

I did google the definition, per websters: "one of two half spheres (see SPHERE entry 1 sense 2a) formed by a plane (see PLANE entry 1 sense 2a) through the sphere's center"

The plane forms it (in that the result of cutting a sphere with a plane that runs through the center of the sphere results in two hemispheres), but is not part of the hemisphere geometrically speaking. Notice it is defined as a "half sphere." It cannot be a "half sphere" with a bottom, at least that is my understanding. It has been too long since I had a math/geometric class, but my sons are taking linear algebra and calculus 2, I can pick their brains this afternoon.

Your understanding seems flawed to me... they discuss the plane as part of the shape. More:

http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/nicholas4.html
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-formula-for-surface-area-of-hemisphere

Think about cubes, pyramids, icosahedrons, dodecahedrons, etc.... generally speaking, when you have a shape, you do not randomly cut into it and carve it out on one side.

I also question your definition as they describe a sphere as "...nearly perfectly round..." Mathematically / geometrically it is a perfectly round shape.

You folks can question all you like... if you consider Sage Advice to be part of the game, your RAW Huts have floors. If you want to rule otherwise, you're ruling against Sage Advice. It really is not that complex.

By the way - they likely mentioned "nearly" in the definition as, to date, there are no perfect spheres (manmade or in nature).

Putting all that aside, I see this spell used all the time. I have never seen it be overpowered. I've seen it result in a TPK when the party hid in it and the bad guys collected all their allies to attack at once... I've seen PCs use this third level spell (cast without a spell slot, but still third level) to avoid 'wandering' beast encouters entirely. I've seen PCs run in and out of it during a combat to defend themselves, getting a benefit similar to blink.... none of it was overpowering.

 

[Jester David]

Leomund's Tiny Hut says it blocks magical effects from crossing the barrier. Scrying doesn't "cross" per say as just "appear".

On the one hand, we already have a 3rd level spell (Nondetection) that is specifically designed to do this. If Leomund's can block all of that and more and for multiple people....it seems to weaken nondetection. Of course on the other hand, leomund's is an immobile area where nondetection lets you walk around.

So what do you think?

Jeremy Crawford answered this on a DragonTalk podcast that was a rules Q&A.
His answer was to default to what was more favourable to the players. So "no" if they're in the hut and "yes" if they're trying to scry into the hut, and then sticking with that answer.

 

[dave2008]

Your understanding seems flawed to me... they discuss the plane as part of the shape. More:

http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/nicholas4.html
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-formula-for-surface-area-of-hemisphere

Think about cubes, pyramids, icosahedrons, dodecahedrons, etc.... generally speaking, when you have a shape, you do not randomly cut into it and carve it out on one side.

You folks can question all you like... if you consider Sage Advice to be part of the game, your RAW Huts have floors. If you want to rule otherwise, you're ruling against Sage Advice. It really is not that complex.

By the way - they likely mentioned "nearly" in the definition as, to date, there are no perfect spheres (manmade or in nature).

Putting all that aside, I see this spell used all the time. I have never seen it be overpowered. I've seen it result in a TPK when the party hid in it and the bad guys collected all their allies to attack at once... I've seen PCs use this third level spell (cast without a spell slot, but still third level) to avoid 'wandering' beast encouters entirely. I've seen PCs run in and out of it during a combat to defend themselves, getting a benefit similar to blink.... none of it was overpowering.

It seems you missed my update where I noted the surface area included the plane. The fact remains that the mathematical definition of a sphere is not a volume. That is a separate definition / equation. So logic would seem to suggest that neither is a hemisphere, of course the area of a hemisphere equation disputes this interpretation.

Not that it matters, but no I do not consider Sage Advice to be a part of the game. I considered to be advice about the game though.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

The spell doesn't say hemisphere. It says dome...so it could have a floor or it might not. It could be perfectly hemispherical or it may not be. I own a dome tent and it's not a perfect hemisphere. It has a floor. I have dome kitchen tent, it's also not a perfect hemisphere and it has no floor.

If you go with Sage advice, you'd probably say it has a floor but the spell doesn't really say so if you're the kind of DM that takes Sage advice with a grain of salt, it may or may not have a floor...or be a perfect dome. Really, to me, it comes down to flavour. I'd probably let the players describe what it looks like. A bard's version might look different than a Wizard's or an Eldrich Knight's.

 

[dave2008]

The spell doesn't say hemisphere. It says dome...so it could have a floor or it might not. It could be perfectly hemispherical or it may not be. I own a dome tent and it's not a perfect hemisphere. It has a floor. I have dome kitchen tent, it's also not a perfect hemisphere and it has no floor.

If you go with Sage advice, you'd probably say it has a floor but the spell doesn't really say so if you're the kind of DM that takes Sage advice with a grain of salt, it may or may not have a floor...or be a perfect dome. Really, to me, it comes down to flavour. I'd probably let the players describe what it looks like. A bard's version might look different than a Wizard's or an Eldrich Knight's.

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Thank you for the clarification!

lol. Actually, now that I feel so smart and re-read the description, the descriptive text says dome but the Range is 'self: 10 foot radius hemisphere'

but I just take that to mean it extends 10 feet in every direction, including above the caster.

 

[Stalker0]

All I think the shape argument has been thoroughly reviewed. At this point, a DM has to decide if it has a floor or not.

So if it doesn't, then that's a pretty easy excuse to say that anything that doesn't need direct line of effect should work.


As lets assume that it does have a floor for further discussion. Would certain spells still work in this scenario?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Whether or not it has a floor doesn't change my opinion at all, regarding scry and teleport. Actually, the fact that it has a floor explains things like, 'what happens if you cast it on snow? Does the snow melt and you have to sleep on the wet ground?' Instead it just covers the snow and it's dry.

But then does the snow not pack down anymore? what about quick-sand? does the floor that keeps you dry and warm also keep you from sinking into the sand? Does rough terrain like mud or deep snow no longer slow you down?

 

[Oofta]

As far as the hut having a floor or not I rule that it does not for a couple of reasons.

• It's a low level spell that can be cast as a ritual and should have vulnerabilities.
• I view it as basically a magic force field. If it was a solid hemisphere it would have a floor, but then nothing else could occupy it's interior. Since things can occupy the interior it has to be hollow. It's like taking a hollow globe and cutting it in half; it doesn't suddenly get an extra surface area

As far as other spells that are target self (including scrying) it is unaffected by barriers of any kind unless it's specifically stated otherwise. You don't have to have line of effect to the target.

 

[Dausuul]

You folks can question all you like... if you consider Sage Advice to be part of the game, your RAW Huts have floors. If you want to rule otherwise, you're ruling against Sage Advice. It really is not that complex.

If you consider Sage Advice to be part of the game, then when a wraith kills someone and turns them into a specter, and you destroy the specter within 1 minute and cast revivify on the corpse, the specter returns and starts attacking again. Try that one on your players sometime. Jeremy Crawford is not responsible for DMs getting force-fed their own d4s.

Sage Advice is advice, and not always good advice. As far as I'm concerned, when discussing how to rule on a question like this, a good answer considers the text of RAW (which is to say, the actual text in the actual book); game balance; consistency with other rulings; the fiction of the game world; and, most importantly, creating a fun play experience for all concerned. Sage Advice is relevant only insofar as it touches on those things.