Does Masterwork Spiked Armor = +1 to Armor Spike attacks?

[Zaruthustran]

Armor spikes are not seperate weapons. Their cost is added to the cost of armor--they are part of the armor itself.

However, the PHB says that they can be *enchanted* as if they were seperate weapons and magical armor enchantments do not add to armor spike damage.

So... if you buy Masterwork Spiked Armor, do your armor spike attacks get +1 to-hit?

I'd say yes, because you cannot buy Armor Spikes seperately. For instance, you can't buy "Masterwork Armor Spikes" and somehow put them onto a suit of regular armor. But magical armor spikes exist, and any magical item is also a masterwork item. The only way to get masterwork armor spikes is to buy a suit of masterwork spiked armor. Therefore..

Okay, I think I just answered my own question.

-z

 

[Caliban]

Armor spikes are not seperate weapons. Their cost is added to the cost of armor--they are part of the armor itself.

However, the PHB says that they can be *enchanted* as if they were seperate weapons and magical armor enchantments do not add to armor spike damage.

So... if you buy Masterwork Spiked Armor, do your armor spike attacks get +1 to-hit?

I'd say yes, because you cannot buy Armor Spikes seperately. For instance, you can't buy "Masterwork Armor Spikes" and somehow put them onto a suit of regular armor. But magical armor spikes exist, and any magical item is also a masterwork item. The only way to get masterwork armor spikes is to buy a suit of masterwork spiked armor. Therefore..

Okay, I think I just answered my own question.

-z

The spikes are a martial weapon. They have a seperate proficiency, can be added after you get the armor, and do their own damage.

Like any weapon, you would need to pay an extra +300 gp to make the armor spikes masterwork before you could enchant them.

You could have normal armor spikes on masterwork armor, or masterwork spikes on normal armor.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Wow

I hate to question the great Caliban, but...

SRD: "Armor Spikes: Spikes can be added to armor. They deal 1d6 points of piercing damage (X2 crit) with a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If a character is not proficient with them, the character suffers a -4 penalty on grapple checks when trying to use them. A regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) can be made with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.

Extras
Armor Cost Weight
Armor spikes +50gp +10lb "

Armor spikes are not martial weapons, they "count as" martial weapons. Spikes cannot be bought seperately--the cost of the spikes are "+50", as in, they add +50 to the cost of your armor. Spikes are added to armor as the armor is being made. You cannot, for instance, buy a suit of armor and later decide to add spikes to it. You'd have to buy a whole new suit of armor, and the cost would be [price of armor]+50 gp. Just like how you can't "add" masterwork quality to an existing weapon. You have to buy a whole new weapon, and the price would be [price of weapon] +300.

Otherwise, they'd just list the price of armor spikes as simply 50 -- just like they do with the weapon "Spiked Gauntlet". Note that while "Spiked Gauntlet" is a seperately-sold weapon and is listed on the weapon list, "Armor Spikes" are not seperately-sold and are listed on the armor list. Armor spikes are explicitly an "Armor Extra", not a weapon.

Which means... masterwork spiked armor does not grant a +1 to-hit, because the spikes are masterwork armor, not masterwork weapons. But the spikes *can* be enchanted seperately, and they are enchanted as magic weapons.

Thanks Caliban.

-z

 

[JChung2003]

Is it +300 to make armor spikes a masterwork weapon or +150 to make armor spikes masterwork armor? My hunch is that it's +300 since armor spikes have no armor check penalty.

I ran into this dilemma with masterwork shields and ruled that you could spend +300 to reduce the armor check penalty, +150 to add the attack bonus for bashes, and +450 to do both, though I would love to see someone contradict me and say that somewhere it says that you don't have to spend +450 to get both masterwork enhancements.

 

[Wolf72]

... but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right. (PHb p105)

it may be part of the armor, but I think there is a definite distinction when it comes to spikes.

so i guess you could spend 300,000+gp on getting an enchanted suit of armor with spikes (100k+ for +10 armor, and 200k +for +10 spikes)

 

[Zaruthustran]

Is it +300 to make armor spikes a masterwork weapon or +150 to make armor spikes masterwork armor? My hunch is that it's +300 since armor spikes have no armor check penalty.

Armor spikes are an "Extra" for armor. If your spiked armor is masterwork, so are the spikes on that armor--the armor and its spikes are not seperate "items". I guess you could pay +300 (when the armor is made) to add the Masterwork Weapon quality on the spikes (+1 Attack). Otherwise, you've just got Masterwork spiked armor (reduces armor check penalty by 1).

I ran into this dilemma with masterwork shields and ruled that you could spend +300 to reduce the armor check penalty, +150 to add the attack bonus for bashes, and +450 to do both, though I would love to see someone contradict me and say that somewhere it says that you don't have to spend +450 to get both masterwork enhancements.

Well, a spiked shield costs [shield price]+10. If you want to reduce the armor check penalty for that shield, get a Masterwork Spiked Shield for [shield price] +10 + 150. If you want to get an attack bonus, I think it would work as armor spikes above.

Hmm... I'd take guidance from the Magic Armor entry of the SRD:

You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the magic offensive bonus cost would need to be added into the defensive bonus cost of the shield.

So, yeah, you're right: it'd be [shield price] +10 +450 for a Masterwork Spiked shield with -1 Armor Check and +1 to-hit.

-z

 

[Caliban]

Since spikes can be added to the armor after it was made, then the spikes would have to be masterwork in their own right.

Since the spikes are enchanted seperately from the armor, they would have have to be masterwork in their own right.

Since the spikes are created seperately from the armor, require a seperate proficiency from the armor, and are enchanted seperately from the armor, they would have to be created as masterwork in their own right.

They are not a part of the armor, they are an extra weapon that is attached to the armor. You can damage or remove the spikes and it won't have any effect on the armor.

How may ways do you want me to say it?

 

[Mistwell]

Since spikes can be added to the armor after it was made, then the spikes would have to be masterwork in their own right.

Since the spikes are enchanted seperately from the armor, they would have have to be masterwork in their own right.

Since the spikes are created seperately from the armor, require a seperate proficiency from the armor, and are enchanted seperately from the armor, they would have to be created as masterwork in their own right.

They are not a part of the armor, they are an "extra" as you pointed out.

How may ways do you want me to say it?

Not that I agree with him, but you should probably answer Zaruthustran challenge first regarding this issue. He makes at least a colorable argument that the spikes cannot be added to the armor after the armor is made.

 

[Caliban]

Not that I agree with him, but you should probably answer Zaruthustran challenge first regarding this issue. He makes at least a colorable argument that the spikes cannot be added to the armor after the armor is made.

What do you mean? The first line of the Armor Spikes entry is pretty clear: "You can have spikes added to your armor."

It's not "You can have your armor created with spikes", it's spikes can be added. Before you can add the spikes, you have to have the armor first. Otherwise you don't have anything to add them to.

The reason they are in the armor sectioni and not the weapon section is that they are useless without the armor. You can use a guantlet by itself, but armor spikes can't be. They have to be attached to the armor to be used.

 

[mkletch]

Armor spikes are an addition to armor; that's why they are placed in the table with the armor. However, they provide no defensive function, and so are not an armor. They can be used to damage an opponent, and so are a weapon. +300gp for MW. It's not meant to be complicated; perhaps it should have been listed in both tables (armor and weapons)?

-Fletch!