Does Polymorph restrict size-changes?

[ThirdWizard]

While sometimes they look a bit more like an errata than a clarification, they really are quite reasonable in most cases and certainly very helpful.

That's part of the problem, though! It isn't so bad that you have to check up on most of it to see how accurate it is, so a bad ruling might easily slip under the radar. That's why I avoid it. Unfortunately, its impossible to avoid many bad ones while reading these forums for the most part.

And they *are* official additions to the rules!

Official clarifications. The mirror image rule, for example, doesn't supercede the actual text
in the actual spell in the PHB that says they have to be within 5' of each other. Which is the way we've played that spell the whole time. The RotG articles have their problems as well that I've seen people bring up on these boards.

I also don't think that you should have to go outside the actual Core books to find out how something works.

 

[Nareau]

Therefore, the limit of "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" replaces "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size". The "smaller than fine" limit really isn't a limit at all; it allows for any size category to be assumed.

First of all, this looks like same kind of circular reasoning Thanee is so fond of. You can't claim to have been convinced that polymorph doesn't further limit alter self because "the rules in polymorph [aren't] there to further limit alter self".

I'll try to state my position a little more clearly. I read polymorph like this:
This spell functions like alter self, with the following changes:

1) you change the willing subject into another form (ie, kind or type) of living creature.
(ALTER SELF: You assume the form (ie, shape) of a creature of the same type as your normal form)

2) The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.
(ALTER SELF: You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself)

3) The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.
(ALTER SELF: The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level)

4) You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.
(ALTER SELF: The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.)

5) The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
(ALTER SELF: Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form.)

6) Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
(ALTER SELF: No mention of either)

7) The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.
(ALTER SELF: You retain your own ability scores.)

8) It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form
(ALTER SELF: You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks)

9) but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
(ALTER SELF: You do not gain...special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.)

10) Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
(ALTER SELF: No mention of these restrictions)

The rest of Alter Self seems to still apply to Polymorph:

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form.

You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

---

Given this item-by-item comparison, it's clear to me that the "smaller than fine" restriction is meant to entirely replace the "one size category" restriction. None of the other items from Alter Self are meant to co-exist with their corresponding items from Polymorph, so I don't see why the size restriction should.

I somewhat resent your accusation that I'm using circular reasoning. Especially since the OP clearly states that I started off on the other side of this fence. To quote my favorite bad guy: "Don't go visiting in my intentions. Don't ever."

Spider

 

[mikebr99]

it's clear to me that the "smaller than fine" restriction is meant to entirely replace the "one size category" restriction. None of the other items from Alter Self are meant to co-exist with their corresponding items from Polymorph, so I don't see why the size restriction should.

Spider

Your Spidey senses are right on the money.


Mike

 

[Thanee]

Yep, the only thing, which is circular, is the motivation to come up with the same solution, that WotC uses nowadays.

The way to get there, is not circular at all, the "intent" (whether it is the intent of the writer or not, we don't even really know, whether all spells are actually written by the same person, could as well have been multiple writers) just helps select one of the several ways to interprete the spell, but it's not used as an argument for the way itself, just for the choice of way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

4) You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.
(ALTER SELF: The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.)

The correct alter self parallel is "no mention of these restrictions".

Given this item-by-item comparison, it's clear to me that the "smaller than fine" restriction is meant to entirely replace the "one size category" restriction. None of the other items from Alter Self are meant to co-exist with their corresponding items from Polymorph, so I don't see why the size restriction should.

So it's clear to you that "within one size category" must replace "not smaller than Fine" because... you made a list where you replace the "within one size category" rule with the "not smaller than Fine" rule. It is only a "corresponding item" if you've already decided it's supposed to be replaced. (Edit: Wrong way around. )

I somewhat resent your a ccusation that I'm using circular reasoning. Especially since the OP clearly states that I started off on the other side of this fence. To quote my favorite bad guy: "Don't go visiting in my intentions. Don't ever."

If you don't like to be accused of circular reasoning you may want to avoid circular reasoning.

 

[Nareau]

The correct alter self parallel is "no mention of these restrictions".
So it's clear to you that "within one size category" must replace "not smaller than Fine" because...

Ya got that one backwards. I want "smaller than fine" to replace "within one size category," as the size-limitation clause, not the other way around.

you made a list where you replace the "within one size category" rule with the "not smaller than Fine" rule. It is only a "corresponding item" if you've already decided it's supposed to be replaced.

No. It's a corresponding item because both clauses deal with the very specific topic of size changes. It's supposed to be replaced because of the word "except".

My reasoning is this: "New info in Polymorph overrides what's in Alter Self when they deal with the same subject." You seem to be accusing me of saying, "I want Polymorph to work this way, so I'll make stuff up to justify it." Please, give me some more credit than that.

Let me ask you some clarifying questions on your position:
1) Can a wizard polymorph into himself?

2) Can polymorph change the target into something with more than 5 HD?

3) Can a vampire wizard cast Alter Self, and become incorporeal by assuming the form of a Wraith?

If I understand your argument correctly, you believe that the explicit allowances and limitations in Polymorph should be applied concurrently with the allowances and limitations set forth in Alter Self. Hence, your conclusion that "one size category" should be applied alongside "no smaller than fine." Am I restating your position correctly?

Spider

PS - I'm not using circular reasoning because I'm not using circular reasoning.

 

[Saeviomagy]

If I understand your argument correctly, you believe that the explicit allowances and limitations in Polymorph should be applied concurrently with the allowances and limitations set forth in Alter Self. Hence, your conclusion that "one size category" should be applied alongside "no smaller than fine." Am I restating your position correctly?

That's what his position seems to be - and if we do that, then you end up with alter self's hit dice and type limitations too.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's what his position seems to be - and if we do that, then you end up with alter self's hit dice and type limitations too.

This is totally incorrect.

Polymorph is very explicit on hit dice and type limitations.

Polymorph is NOT explicit on size. The only size mentioned in Polymorph at all is minimum size and even that is not phrased to indicate that any creature can be polymorphed into a Fine sized creature.

Given that Polymorph DOES explicitly state that it "functions like Alter Self", you cannot make any conclusions beyond what is written in Polymorph and what is written in Alter Self concerning size.

Alter Self is one size smaller to one size larger. Polymorph is a minimum of size Fine.

Hence, one size smaller to one size larger with a minimum of size Fine.

Alter Self gives the only size range in the two spells. Polymorph gives the only size minimum. You cannot assume a size range from a size minimum. That's extremely invalid logic.


Type and Hit Dice do not come into the picture at all since Polymorph explicitly states those. It does not explicitly state size range.


And yes, I understand that WotC appears to want to allow any size at all, but that is not a discussion of RAW, that is a discussion of errata.

 

[Hypersmurf]

3) Can a vampire wizard cast Alter Self, and become incorporeal by assuming the form of a Wraith?

Wraiths are incorporeal because they have the [Incorporeal] subtype.

A vampire who uses Alter Self to turn into a wraith retains his own type (Undead) and subtypes ([Augmented Humanoid] or [Augmented Monstrous Humanoid]). Since he does not gain the subtypes of the chosen form, he does not have the Incorporeal subtype... which is the reason a wraith is incorporeal.

So the Vampire Alters Self into a corporeal wraith.

-Hyp.

 

[Nareau]

So the Vampire Alters Self into a corporeal wraith.
-Hyp.

A corporeal wraith that can't walk, at that.

So, Hyp, what say you to the rest of the discussion?

Alter Self gives the only size range in the two spells. Polymorph gives the only size minimum. You cannot assume a size range from a size minimum. That's extremely invalid logic.

Why not? We assume a HD range from a HD maximum.

I'll agree, we don't have an explicit and clear rule either way. But we've got a bunch of reasons (previous versions, FAQ's, D&D literature, balance issues, parallel-rules within the same spells) to believe it should be run without a size restriction.

Spider