Does sniping while hidden deal sneak attack damage?

[Hypersmurf]

Personally, I don't think you can consider the rules to be self-contradictory when you put non-core against core. In that case, core is right and the non-core is wrong. That's part of why they call it core, and the reason my group plays almost exclusively with core rulebooks - portability!

From the Core Rules:
Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.

If you're playing exclusively with Core Rules, and someone is balancing after their first turn in the initiative order, are they flat-footed or not?

However, I'm not saying "It says start of the combat here, and it doesn't say start of the combat there, so there's a contradiction!" I'm quite happy for specific exceptions to exist that impose the flat-footed condition beyond the start of combat, under the principle that a specific rule can override a general rule. Much as the Haste Spell grants a Dodge bonus, while the text for Dodge bonuses states that no spell ever does.

What I'm saying is that invisibility is not one of those specific exceptions that can impose the flat-footed condition beyond the start of combat.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

If WOTC publishes new rules that expands the definition of flat-footedness, then you are free to not accept those rules, but that doesn't mean they cannot validly expand the definition of their own rules. And they don't have to say "We are officially hereby changing the definition" to do so. They just have to do it. And sometimes they can offer the curtesey of saying that's what they are doing, and sometimes we just have to read it and figure it out. This is a case of the later.

tell me where any of the referenced "expanded rules on flat-footed" are actually new rules definitions.

It's logical to look at the body of the rules and try and figure out what WOTC means, and in this case we can look at the body of rules, with an initial definition and then several other things that expand on that definition, and logically conclude that flat-footed can mean more than "beginning of the round".

I tried using that argument before with hidden and "invisibility" but you summarily dismissed that path since I was only using the rules as written and not "looking outside the box" to see the meaning of the words "invisible" and "hidden".

I had used several rules to back up my assertation in this manner, but it didn't seem to matter since it was "so friggin' obvious" that the "intent" was something that was not written in the rules themselves.

The "beginning of the round" was just a way to explain the rule at the time that rule was published, since at that time it was always at the beginning, and it made for an easy way to explain what they meant by that "not ready to react" kind of rule. But now that we grok the ramifications of being flat-footed, they have explained that it doesn't HAVE to be at the beginning of the round - it just usually is at the beginning.

Hmm where is this explanation located?

The only thing I see are statements saying you are flat-footed nothing stating that flat-footed has been redefined.

 

[irdeggman]

Oops my bad. You can not take an immediate action when you are flat-footed.

That rules out several spells, like feather fall and some psionics.

 

[hong]

I tried using that argument before with hidden and "invisibility" but you summarily dismissed that path since I was only using the rules as written and not "looking outside the box" to see the meaning of the words "invisible" and "hidden".

Heaven forbid that we should know the meaning of the words "invisible" and "hidden".

 

[irdeggman]

Interesting one with Balance though.

Hmm can you use feather fall if knocked off a beam when balancing with less than 5 ranks and attacked - since you are now considered "flat-footed"?

 

[irdeggman]

Heaven forbid that we should know the meaning of the words "invisible" and "hidden".

Or read the definition of flat-footed as presented in the PHB, that has not been changed in any splat books to date.

At least Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium specifically stated that feather fall is now an immediate action casting time instead of a "free action" as was in the PHB. This is an example of a rule change.

 

[hong]

Or read the definition of flat-footed as presented in the PHB, that has not been changed in any splat books to date.

Or accept that in many situations, "flat-footed" is used as a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC". Seems to save an awful lot of trouble, at least if you're not a computer.

At least Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium specifically stated that feather fall is now an immediate action casting time instead of a "free action" as was in the PHB. This is an example of a rule change.

Not that it actually made a difference to 99% of games.

 

[irdeggman]

Or accept that in many situations, "flat-footed" is used as a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC". Seems to save an awful lot of trouble, at least if you're not a computer.

How about the no AoO is that part of it too?

It is much deeper than merely losing Dex bonus to AC, as I have repeatedly stated.

 

[hong]

How about the no AoO is that part of it too?

If you want it to be.

It is much deeper than merely losing Dex bonus to AC, as I have repeatedly stated.

It is only much deeper than losing Dex bonus to AC if you want it to be.

Do you want it to be?

 

[Mistwell]

Or accept that in many situations, "flat-footed" is used as a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC". Seems to save an awful lot of trouble, at least if you're not a computer.



Not that it actually made a difference to 99% of games.

It's seriously scaring me that you and I agree so much on this topic. I guess it's the full moon.