Does sniping while hidden deal sneak attack damage?

[Old Gumphrey]

OK I think I figured out the problem here, and the reason there are two camps.

Being flat-footed means you are denied your dex bonus regarding ALL attackers. If you're flat-footed, anyone with sneak attack can sneak attack you.

-snip-

Being invisible means you ignore your target's dex bonus to AC. You don't cause him to be flat-footed. He just doesn't get to use his dex bonus to AC regarding YOU.

-snip-

While it doesn't specifically say this, your target while you are invisible is effectively flat-footed against your attacks.

-snip-

While this is completely obvious to most people, I think some people are simply stating the exact RAW and making sure that its clear that if you're invisible, you're not causing other people to be flat-footed. You're just personally ignoring their AC bonuses.

So if you hit someone with Flick of the Wrist, that means you and ALL YOUR PALS can sneak attack that poor sap until his next go.

If you roll up on someone while you're invisible, and they're already fighting, they don't become flat-footed; you ignore their dex bonus to AC in reference to you. But I don't really think anyone was letting invisible attackers cause the flat-footed condition; they were letting invisible attackers attack their target as if they were flat-footed.

I believe the sentence from SRD:

An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

translates to "for all intents and purposes, the target is denied its dex bonus to AC in reference to the invisible attacker". It doesn't specifically say this, but that's why English is beautiful, because it has so many synonyms and options.

Otherwise, rogues are even worse than they already are, and that is just incomprehensible to me, because they are pretty bad. If I get a sneak attack when I surprise someone, and I get one when I fight dirty and double team someone, why don't I get one when I roll up completely undetected and start chopping?

Say I'm in a gun fight with my neighbor. His gun jams. Do I ignore his ability to kill me at range, or is he denied his ability to kill me at range? Or is it both at the same time? Does this matter at all regarding my health? The fact that it doesn't leads me to believe "both at the same time" over "one specific phrasing".

I mean the FAQ said as much; that's the intent (and apparently, the interpretation) of the rules.

At least Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium specifically stated that feather fall is now an immediate action casting time instead of a "free action" as was in the PHB. This is an example of a rule change.

Except it specifically states that you can cast it "when it's not your turn". Hmm. A free action that you can use when it's not your turn. Sounds a lot like an immediate action to me. That's a rule change as much as a kick in the crotch is a slap in the face. "Immediate action" is merely a more concrete concept than "free actions when it isn't your turn". It was designed to save space and be more concise, not change the way existing rules work.

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
How about the no AoO is that part of it too?

If you want it to be.

Quote:
It is much deeper than merely losing Dex bonus to AC, as I have repeatedly stated.

Do you want it to be?

I'm gald you are now firmly into the table rules section.

I have been trying to point out what the conditon flat-footed entails, to no avail.

But to reiterate and point out the RAW sources:

Things “affected” by being flat-footed:

Base effects:

No Dex Bonus to AC (PHB pg 137, 308)
Can’t make AoO (PHB pg 137, 308), unless have Combat Reflexes feat (PHB pg 92)
No Dodge bonus to AC (PHB pg 93, 307)
No immediate actions (Complete Arcane pg 86)

You are considered flat-footed until your next action. (PHB pg 133, 135, 308)

Things that you would be forbidden from doing if flat-footed.

Expanded Psionics (pg 10)
“• Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action.”

Catfall (Exp Psionics pg 82)
Immediate manifesting time power, “You recover instantly from a fall and can absorb some damage from falling.”

Empty Mind (Exp Psionics pg 99)
Immediate manifesting time power “You empty your mind of all transitory and distracting thoughts, improving your self-control. You gain a +2 bonus on all Will saves until your next action. You can manifest this power instantly, quickly enough to gain its benefits in an emergency.”

Fate of One (Exp Psionics pg 107)
Immediate manifesting time power, “You limited omniscience allows you to reroll a saving throw, attack roll or skill check.”

Mental Barrier (Exp Psionics pg 115)
Immediate manifesting time power “You project a field of improbability around yourself, creating a fleeting protective shell. You gain a +4 deflection bonus to AC. You can manifest this power instantly, quickly enough to gain its benefits in an emergency.”


Arcane Toughness (PHB II pg
“You can expend a prepared spell of spell slot as an immediate action when you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points. You heal. . . .”

Dampen Spell (PHB II pg 78)
“You can use an immediate action to attempt to dampen an enemy’s spell.”

Divine Fortune (PHB II pg 88)
“As an immediate action, you can expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to gain a +4 bonus on your next saving throw.”

Electric Vengeance (PHB II pg 111)
Immediate action spell, “You can only cast this spell when another creature has just dealt hit point damage to you. . ..”

Stay the Hand (PHB II pg 126)
Immediate action spell, “ If the target creature fails its save against stay the hand it refrains from attacking you or targeting you with spells for the remainder of the current round. You can cast this spell during an opponent’s turn after the opponent announces its intention to attack you or target you with a spell”

These are just some of the immediate actions that can’t be done because a character is flat-footed. It would appear that several of them are actually designed to be used in combat as immediate responses to attacks and when something specifies that a character is “flat-footed” after the beginning of the round then these actions are not allowed.

Things like the Elan’s resistance ability, Empty Mind, Fate of One, Mental Barrier, Arcane Toughness, Divine Fortune specifically.

Now where is this "new" definition of flat-footed that states the only thing that happens is that your lose your Dex bonus to AC, which is what some people are insinuating. If that is true then the rules have changed and you can take immediate actions and make AoO when flat-footed.

When the rules state you are flat-footed these are the things that you are forbidden from doing. Note that none of the new things that state you are flat-footed (like flick of the wrist) state these other limitations do not apply.

 

[irdeggman]

translates to "for all intents and purposes, the target is denied its dex bonus to AC in reference to the invisible attacker". It doesn't specifically say this, but that's why English is beautiful, because it has so many synonyms and options.

What about the +2 to attack rolls? Shouldn't that also be included as well as the denied Dex bonus to AC?

Otherwise, rogues are even worse than they already are, and that is just incomprehensible to me, because they are pretty bad. If I get a sneak attack when I surprise someone, and I get one when I fight dirty and double team someone, why don't I get one when I roll up completely undetected and start chopping?

You actually feel that rogues are not extremly powerful with their sneak attack? You must be the only one I've seen with this opinion. With two weapon fighting a flanking rogue is downright nasty.

Except it specifically states that you can cast it "when it's not your turn". Hmm. A free action that you can use when it's not your turn. Sounds a lot like an immediate action to me. That's a rule change as much as a kick in the crotch is a slap in the face. "Immediate action" is merely a more concrete concept than "free actions when it isn't your turn". It was designed to save space and be more concise, not change the way existing rules work.

But the rules did change. You can only do 1 swift action per round and an immediate action uses up your next swift action. This, while definitely an attempt to make things clearer did in fact change the rules, since there is essentially no specified limit to the number of free actions a character can take.

 

[hong]

I'm gald you are now firmly into the table rules section.

No, no. You are, because you want to.

I have been trying to point out what the conditon flat-footed entails, to no avail.

Yes. Because in the end, when "flat-footed" is being used to mean "lose Dex bonus to AC", it's hardly surprising that trying to get it to mean something else is going to be of no avail.

But to reiterate and point out the RAW sources:

Irrelevant when flat-footed is being used to mean "lose Dex bonus to AC".

When the rules state you are flat-footed these are the things that you are forbidden from doing.

Whereas when the rules are using flat-footed to mean "lose Dex bonus to AC", these are things that you might or might not be forbidden from doing, depending on how the DM wishes to treat words in English.

 

[billd91]

Things “affected” by being flat-footed:

Base effects:

No Dex Bonus to AC (PHB pg 137, 308)
Can’t make AoO (PHB pg 137, 308), unless have Combat Reflexes feat (PHB pg 92)
No Dodge bonus to AC (PHB pg 93, 307)
No immediate actions (Complete Arcane pg 86)

You are considered flat-footed until your next action. (PHB pg 133, 135, 308)

Things that you would be forbidden from doing if flat-footed.

<snip>

When the rules state you are flat-footed these are the things that you are forbidden from doing. Note that none of the new things that state you are flat-footed (like flick of the wrist) state these other limitations do not apply.

Having throught about this a bit more, though I think use of the term flat-footed is currently sloppy on WotC's part, a more considered use of it wouldn't be all that bad. Note that WotC has said that targets are flat-footed with respect to the invisible/hidden attacker and not really flat-footed in general. So that would mean that you lose your Dex and Dodge modifiers to AC with respect to attacks from the invisible/hidden attacker. That seems fair. You wouldn't get AoO against them, but since the invisible/hidden attacker benefits from full concealment anyway, that seems OK. You don't get to take an immediate action in reaction to attacks from the invisible/hidden attacker. That also seems pretty reasonable since it really can't be reacted to.

Overall, the implications of being flat-footed with respect to the invisible/hidden attacker don't seem to be that bad. I may have a bit of a problem with the idea of being flat-footed to segments of the playing field without being flat-footed to them all, but I think that can be managed.

I can understand some concerns with flat-footedness, as caused by having to balance without having enough ranks, not allowing a character to take an immediate action. Being unable to take immediate actions due to being flat-footed because of being caught by surprise or being unable to react to an attacker makes fine sense to me. I'm just not sure it makes sense because you can't balance properly. In that case, I'm not sure flat-footed is the best descriptor for that condition any more.

 

[irdeggman]

Whereas when the rules are using flat-footed to mean "lose Dex bonus to AC", these are things that you might or might not be forbidden from doing, depending on how the DM wishes to treat words in English.

Here a few examples of this flat-footed whn not at the beginning of the round issue:


Flick of the Wrist (CW pg 99)

“If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only).”


Elusive Target (CW pg 110)

Diverting Defense ”. . .The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flat-footed. . . .“

Balance (PHB pg 67)

Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while
balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.

Now where does it state that the only the only thing that happens is you lose yor Dex mod ot AC?

Let's ask the question?

Are you flat-footed?

Can you take an immediate action when flat-footed?

No (per the RAW)

Can you make an AoO when flat-footed?

No (per the RAW)

Are you really flat-footed or is it actually something else like being denied Dex mod to AC, which occurs at times other than beinf flat-footed?

If you are flat-footed, you meet the condition stating that you can't take an immediate action - regardless of how you got there. It is like when a rogue gets to use his sneak attack - anytime he meets the conditions specified.

If you are flat-footed then you also meet the condition that you can't take an AoO, regardless of how you got there.

It is simple and very straight forward.

Now here is something interesting:

Climb skill (PHB pg 69)

You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t
use a shield while climbing.

Doesn't say you are flat-footed only that you need to use both hands to climb and can't use a shield and thus lose your Dex bonus to AC. It is important to note it doesn't say you are flat-footed because a monk should be able to make an AoO when climbing (or anyone with Improved Unarmed Strike for that matter) since he can attack with his knees or feet as well as his hands.

Now the Armor Class Modifiers Table (PHB pg 151) does something strange and conflicting with the climb skill text itself.

It lists "Defender is flat-footed (such as surprised, balancing, climbing)" and then has that you get no Dex bonus to AC in the melee and ranged combat modifiers columns.

But note how they have thrown in climb as an example of flat-footed when it is specifically not per the actual skill description text.

Do they conflict?

Which is correct?

Are you flat-footed when climbing or merely denied your Dex bonus to AC (and use of both hands for anything but climbing).

 

[SlagMortar]

Do they conflict?

Yes. This is clear evidence that WoTC uses the term flat-footed loosely. That is a problem if you are actually trying to figure out what the rules say.

Which is correct?

(Un)Fortunately, the D&D rules can never be self-contradictory due to the "specific overrides general" and the "primary source" rules in the errata. Which rule is more specific? Both deal with what happens while you are climbing. Which is the "primary source"? That is certainly open for debate.

Are you flat-footed when climbing or merely denied your Dex bonus to AC (and use of both hands for anything but climbing).

It depends which you consider the primary source.

Interestingly, if climbing does cause flat-footedness, then those with uncanny dodge DO NOT lose their Dex bonus to AC while climbing, but if climbing only causes an unamed loss of Dex bonus to AC then those with uncanny dodge DO lose their Dex bonus to AC while climbing.

Edit: removed extra comment that was not applicable

 

[irdeggman]

It depends which you consider the primary source.

As far as I know text supecedes tables so the climb skill text should be the correct one if there is a conflict, like in this case.

Interestingly, if climbing does cause flat-footedness, then those with uncanny dodge DO NOT lose their Dex bonus to AC while climbing, but if climbing only causes an unamed loss of Dex bonus to AC then those with uncanny dodge DO lose their Dex bonus to AC while climbing.

You've nailed one of the major reasons why the wording is so important.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if you hit someone with Flick of the Wrist, that means you and ALL YOUR PALS can sneak attack that poor sap until his next go.

No, because "you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only)."

For any other purpose - such as his taking an immediate action, his making an AoO, or his being attacked by someone else - you do not catch your opponent flat-footed. You catch your opponent flat-footed for the purpose of this attack only.

If you have an ability that only triggers on an attack against a flat-footed opponent - like the OA Iaijutsu attacks - this would trigger after Flick of the Wrist. If the feat merely denied Dex bonus to AC, such an ability would not trigger.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Here a few examples of this flat-footed whn not at the beginning of the round issue:

Which only matter if you want them to.

Do you want them to?

Now where does it state that the only the only thing that happens is you lose yor Dex mod ot AC?

It is an inference obtained from the fact that flat-footed is used as a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC". It means more if you want it to.

Do you want it to?

Let's ask the question?

Are you flat-footed?

Can you take an immediate action when flat-footed?

No (per the RAW)

Can you make an AoO when flat-footed?

No (per the RAW)

Are you really flat-footed or is it actually something else like being denied Dex mod to AC, which occurs at times other than beinf flat-footed?

You are really flat-footed if you want it so.

Do you want it so?

If you are flat-footed, you meet the condition stating that you can't take an immediate action - regardless of how you got there. It is like when a rogue gets to use his sneak attack - anytime he meets the conditions specified.

If one is a computer and is unable to comprehend the concept of flat-footed being a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC", yes.

It is simple and very straight forward.

Yes. Assuming one is not a computer.

Doesn't say you are flat-footed only that you need to use both hands to climb and can't use a shield and thus lose your Dex bonus to AC.

Your ability to produce examples of text where flat-footed is not used as a synonym for "lose Dex bonus to AC" is intriguing.

Now the Armor Class Modifiers Table (PHB pg 151) does something strange and conflicting with the climb skill text itself.

One might assume that such prima facie evidence of the RAW not being a complete, consistent logical framework might demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt the farcical nature of narrow argumentation based solely on that framework, but such is perhaps a forlorn hope.

Do they conflict?

Which is correct?

Are you flat-footed when climbing or merely denied your Dex bonus to AC (and use of both hands for anything but climbing).

And so do the pillars of heaven quake and tremble.