Does spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

[Pielorinho]

Reasonably simple question. I have the feat spell thematics, meaning that (amongst window-dressing effects) I can choose one spell per spell level that I cast at +1 caster level. For my fourth-level spell, I chose flamestrike, meaning that, as a tenth-level druid, I cast flamestrike as an eleventh-level druid.

So far, so good.

I've also got my grubby little paws on a prayer bead of karma, which means that for ten minutes every day I can cast all my spells at +4 caster level.

Question: if during those ten minutes I cast flamestrike, do I cast it as a fourteenth-level druid or as a fifteenth-level druid? Is this clarified anywhere in the rules?

Daniel

Edit: In this thread, the consensus seems to be that caster level bonuses all stack with one another, since they're unnamed bonuses. It's not very clear, though, and I'd like to see if other folks have different thoughts on it.

 

[Sejs]

They're not named bonuses - stack your heart out.

 

[Metalsmith]

Reasonably simple question. I have the feat spell thematics, meaning that (amongst window-dressing effects) I can choose one spell per spell level that I cast at +1 caster level. For my fourth-level spell, I chose flamestrike, meaning that, as a tenth-level druid, I cast flamestrike as an eleventh-level druid.

It would be helpfull to know what Optional Rulebook you are getting this spell. Where did you get this Feat?

The only Spell Thematics [General] feat I know is from Magic of Faerun. Choose a them for your spellcasting suck as "ice" or "fire" or "Screaming Skulls" All spells you cast have this theme in teh manifestation of their effects oathough this does not actually change the spell in any way. It adds +5 to the DC of any spellcraft check tmade to identify a spell cast

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Does spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

It would be helpfull to know what Optional Rulebook you are getting this spell. Where did you get this Feat?

The only Spell Thematics [General] feat I know is from Magic of Faerun.

As written, the feat carries the feat type [supersucky]. But if you check out the Errata for Magic of Faerun, you'll find a far superior version of the feat, one that's actually worth taking:

Spell Thematics [General]
You have developed a signature thematic manifestation that gives your spells unique visual or auditory qualities. You are more effective when casting spells strongly linked to your theme, and any spell you cast reflects your signature theme to a greater or lesser extent.

Benefit: Choose a theme for your spellcasting. You cast spells designated as central to your theme at +1 caster level. Add +5 to the DC of any Spellcraft check made to identify any spell you cast, whether or not it is designated as a thematic spell.

A spell theme is comprised of [sic] two components. The first is a set of spells central to your theme. This consists of one spell at each spell level you can cast. For example, a 5th-level wizard might select ray of frost, magic missile, Smilloc's snowball swarm, and fly as spells central to his theme.

The second component is a common visual or auditory effect all your spells share, such as "fire," "ice," "or "screaming skulls." The special effect does not change the spell in any way, other than enhancing your caster level with the spells you choose to be central to your theme. For example, if your theme is "fire," then your magic missile spell might appear to produce bolts of fire, although the bolts are still a force effect and cause normal damage, not fire damage. If your theme is "screaming skulls," your fly spell might manifest as a dozen small screaming skulls that orbit around you, bearing you aloft.

It almost looks as if it's not a bonus at all, but rather an effect. In the same way that a barbarian's fast movement adds 10 to her movement speed and a monk's fast movement adds 10 to her movement speed, I'd expect these to stack.

Daniel

 

[Nareau]

Edit: Curses, he beat me to it.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Does spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

It would be helpfull to know what Optional Rulebook you are getting this spell. Where did you get this Feat?

The only Spell Thematics [General] feat I know is from Magic of Faerun. Choose a them for your spellcasting suck as "ice" or "fire" or "Screaming Skulls" All spells you cast have this theme in teh manifestation of their effects oathough this does not actually change the spell in any way. It adds +5 to the DC of any spellcraft check tmade to identify a spell cast

Spell Thematics was Errata'd; in addition to the MoF benefits, you pick a single spell at each spell level you can cast, designating that spell to recieve a +1 effective caster level benefit. These choices are irreversible and unchangeable once made.

The spells become slightly harder to dispel, penetrate SR slightly better, and have marginally improved range/area/damage/duration/etc.


For example, one common application would be for an Alienist to have Spell Thematics, and designate lots of Summon Monster spells for the +1 caster level benefit.

 

[Pielorinho]

Spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

For example, one common application would be for an Alienist to have Spell Thematics, and designate lots of Summon Monster spells for the +1 caster level benefit.

While that use would have a lot of flavor to it, I think it'd be pretty suboptimal: the only tangible benefit you'd get from it would be making the critters slightly harder to dispel, since by the time you qualify for alienist levels, your summoned critters will usually last until the battle ends or until they're killed, whichever occurs first.

Good candidates for spells thematics, IMO, have one of the following characteristics:
-Damage determined by caster level (flame strike, fireball, etc.)
-Healing determined by caster level (cure moderate wounds, etc.)
-Buffing benefit determined by caster level (barkskin, greater magic weapon, etc.)
-Cool extra benefits determined by caster level (giant vermin, phantom steed, etc.)

You get the idea. Ideally, the spell thematic spell should be slightly better in all cases that it's cast; if not, at least make it significantly better in a significant number of cases that it's cast.

****************

That aside, is there anyone who would care to argue the opposite point -- that increases to caster level should overlap and not stack?

Daniel

 

[Pax]

Re: Spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

While that use would have a lot of flavor to it, I think it'd be pretty suboptimal: the only tangible benefit you'd get from it would be making the critters slightly harder to dispel, since by the time you qualify for alienist levels, your summoned critters will usually last until the battle ends or until they're killed, whichever occurs first.

I never meant to imply it was the most powergamey-useful application, just that it would be a NEAT application, and for alienists, probably quite popular (sicne the other effect of spell thematics, to make the spells seem cast in an alien way, figuratively at least, is thematic to the character itself.

Good candidates for spells thematics, IMO, have one of the following characteristics:
-Damage determined by caster level (flame strike, fireball, etc.)
-Healing determined by caster level (cure moderate wounds, etc.)
-Buffing benefit determined by caster level (barkskin, greater magic weapon, etc.)
-Cool extra benefits determined by caster level (giant vermin, phantom steed, etc.)

Duration is also significant. Improved Invisibility lasts that tiny bit longer.

So is range in some cases. Cone of Cold, before it hits it's damage cap, will (att odd-numbered caster levels) gain an extra 5' of range.

You get the idea. Ideally, the spell thematic spell should be slightly better in all cases that it's cast; if not, at least make it significantly better in a significant number of cases that it's cast.

Ideally for pure powergaming, yes. For purposes of STYLE, otoh, perhaps not. Here's an example of a perhaps-suboptimal, but still effective, spell thematics layout for a character I'm using n an arena right now (Sorceror(10)/Alienist(10)):

[color=green][b]SPELL THEMATICS[/b]
  [i]Common thematic element:[/i] Lovecraftian and similar
    visial/aural motifs,  including and especially, where possible,
    visual manifestations of the "Elder Sign".  Tentacles are also a
    common feature.
  [i]Spells in Main Theme, by spell level:[/i]
    0 Arcane Mark               ; no benefit
    1 Arcane Bolt               ; no benefit
    2 Melf's Acid Arrow         ; with tattoo, +1 round of duration
    3 Flame Arrow               ; +10' range (currently)
    4 Evard's Black Tentacles   ; +1 tentacle, +1 hour duration
    5 Bigby's Interposing Hand  ; +1 round duration, +10' range
    6 Fire Spiders              ; +1 round duration; with tattoo, +5' range
    7 Power Word: Stun          ; with tattoo, +5' range
    8 Symbol                    ; +10 minutes duration
    9 Summon Monster IX         ; +1 round duration[/color]

As you can see, not every spell gains a benefit, beyond SR penetration and dispel resistance. This character, daily, casts the Create Magic Tattoo spell three times -- one of them for +1 caster level. As a result, he gets caster level 22 for the ten spells above; Melf's Acid arrow lasts an extra round (doing +2d4[acid] in the process); several other spells gain small, minor benefits.

But I like that outlay. Evard's Black Tentacles for the spell theme of a to-the-hilt "Cultist of Cthulhu" alienist just makes perfect SENSE to me.

That aside, is there anyone who would care to argue the opposite point -- that increases to caster level should overlap and not stack?

Why should they, when they'd be wrong? The spell Create Magic Tattoo, the feat Spell Thematics, and the effect of the wondrous item Karma Bead are all unnamed bonusses; unnamed bonusses from different sources, unless explicitly stated for one or more of them, always stack.

It's just that simple.

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Spell thematics and prayer bead: karma stack?

I never meant to imply it was the most powergamey-useful application, just that it would be a NEAT application, and for alienists, probably quite popular (sicne the other effect of spell thematics, to make the spells seem cast in an alien way, figuratively at least, is thematic to the character itself.

Well, the difference may be that we tend to allow the window-dressing effects of spell thematics to anybody; indeed, we encourage all spellcasters to tweak the window-dressing of their spells to their heart's content. A fungal druid's flamestrike might appear as a cloud of self-igniting spores, and an earth-druid's flamestrike might appear as a sudden volcanic eruption, and a Sun-cleric's flamestrike might appear as a bolt of burning sunlight, and a necromancer's flamestrike might contain an odor of charnelhouse and swampgas.

In our games, you get that sort of fun stuff wthout paying a feat for it. What you pay a feat for is for measurable results.

Daniel

 

[Pax]

I'm not talking the purely descriptive part. I'm talking about tha fact that it's harder to identify one's spells, because not only do they LOOK (very) different, you cast them in a different, unusual way.

That has it's own inherent benefit ... it's harder for you to be counterspelled, because there's an increased chance that the enemy will misidentify which spell you're casting.