Does Summoning need line of sight?

[Nail]

When casting into areas where it may be difficult for the spellcaster to measure the spell's target point, we sometimes require an easy spellcraft roll to hit your target precisely. That's definitely a house rule, albeit a useful one.

So, you would allow a caster to summon a monster "around a corner"? How far around the corner? "To the limit of the spell range or line of effect?"


Huh.

I'm gonna start having my mage, with total concealment, start summoning monsters on those enemies. I'm thinkin' tower shield.

 

[Greybar]

Nail, I think you missed that first line of Piratecats:

I agree about the line of effect.

The portion Piratecat elaborated on appeared to be about casting into areas that are in line of effect by not "sight" due to concealment (ex: Deeper Darkness, Obscuring Mist, etc.)

john
p.s. note that a tower shield gives cover not concealment. That's the crux of the perceived disagreement between you and Piratecat.

 

[Nail]

The portion Piratecat elaborated on appeared to be about casting into areas that are in line of effect by not "sight" due to concealment (ex: Deeper Darkness, Obscuring Mist, etc.)

Hmm. I wasn't really addressing the darkness or mist issue.

It seems like you shouldn't be able to summon monsters around corners. the SRD says: "A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

Good enough. But it also says: "Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it."

That seems to imply summoning around corners.

Huh..........

 

[jgsugden]

Good enough. But it also says: "Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it."

That seems to imply summoning around corners.

This has no effect on the line of effect requirement.

Line of effect does not require sight. Instead, you must define where you want to cast the spell. You must still have line of effect.

Example 1: Bob the Wizard is standing in the middle of thick fog on a gigantic flat field. His vision is limited to 5'. He knows there is nothing near him. He decides to cast a summon monster spell. He summons a mephit. He decides that he doesn't want the stinky thing right next to him, so he summons it 50' away, directly ahead of him. He can't see the spot where it is to appear, but he can define it and he has line of effect to that spot. The spell works and the mephit appears.

Example 2: Bob the Wizard is standing in the middle of thick fog on a gigantic flat field. His vision is limited to 5'. He *thinks* there is nothing near him. He decides to cast a summon monster spell. He tries to summon a mephit. He decides that he doesn't want the stinky thing right next to him, so he tries to summon it 50' away, directly ahead of him. Unfortunately, Harold the wizard has sneakily encased Bob in an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere spell with a radius of 20'. Bob's Summon Spell does not have a line of effect to the point where he tried to summon the mephit because the ORS blocked his spell's line of effect. Even though Bob could define the spot, the lack of a line of effect will prevent the spell from working.

 

[Piratecat]

Nail, you can't summon around corners, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that you could. Greybar and jgsugden have hit the nail on the head (ahem - so to speak) as to what I was trying to say.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Example 2: Bob the Wizard is standing in the middle of thick fog on a gigantic flat field. His vision is limited to 5'. He *thinks* there is nothing near him. He decides to cast a summon monster spell. He tries to summon a mephit. He decides that he doesn't want the stinky thing right next to him, so he tries to summon it 50' away, directly ahead of him. Unfortunately, Harold the wizard has sneakily encased Bob in an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere spell with a radius of 20'. Bob's Summon Spell does not have a line of effect to the point where he tried to summon the mephit because the ORS blocked his spell's line of effect. Even though Bob could define the spot, the lack of a line of effect will prevent the spell from working.

Replace "Summon Monster" with "Fireball", and it gets more exciting

It's quite similar to what happened to the Sorcerer I DM recently

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

This has no effect on the line of effect requirement.

Line of effect does not require sight. Instead, you must define where you want to cast the spell. You must still have line of effect....

Of course! Sorry...momentary seizure of the rules-lawyer side of my brain. Thanks jgsugden and Piratecat.

As I have not allowed my PCs to summon monsters around corners, and I thought that is what the rules said.......

It's nice to find the occasional rule or two that makes intuitive sense.

 

[Legildur]

Instead of a spellcraft check to place the spell, what about using the grenade-like weapon results? Would that be an improvement? You'd have to define the range increment for each spell though (close, medium, long).

 

[tburdett]

Like summoning a monster on the other side of a wall by aiming the line of effect through an arrow slit?

"An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect."

Unless your arrow slit is at least 1 square foot in size, you cannot summon a creature on the far side of it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Unless your arrow slit is at least 1 square foot in size, you cannot summon a creature on the far side of it.

Most arrow slits (for human sized fortifications) are at least one square foot in size (probably closer to one and a half square feet).

Most arrow slits are not one foot square in size.

So, most spells can have line of effect through most arrow slits, but still not around a corner.