Does the Summoner even need spells?

[1Mac]

A core Summoner is pretty darn powerful. He and his Eidelon get a suite of flexible powers (spells and evolutions respectively), and their power is multiplied by the expanded action economy. Take away spells, though, and suddenly the Summoner's power is mostly tied up in the Eidelon. One successful dismissal and the Summoner is feeling pretty silly.

A Synthesist Summoner is also pretty darn powerful. The action economy is mitigated, but we're basically in the realm of the 3e druid. Again, though, take away spells and you've got a sort of supernatural barbarian with lots of little magical animal friends.

So let's combine the two ideas; let's put a spell-less core Summoner and spell-less Synthesist into one class. This Summoner variant would get a pool of evolution points to be spent and redistributed among both the Summoner and his Eidelon. It could be a daily thing, or it could be something the Summoner can do on the fly, but either way it gives the Summoner some supernatural flexibility without relying on a gonzo spellcasting progression on top of everything else he gets.

This approach makes the Summoner more of a combined pet-master and transmuter, which I actually like, as it invites some colorful reskinning. Already I'm thinking of Summoner-style alternative druids, necromancers, and artificers (the latter modelled on Headless Hydra's summoner-esque Clockworker class).

 

[Lwaxy]

Heh, one of my players is actually creating such a summoner for an upcoming campaign. We plan to treat it more like a born in magical ability and not as anything you can learn (thus no spells).

 

[SteelDraco]

I'd play something like the little girl party member in Jade Empire with such a class. She was possessed by a spirit and a demon, and would transform in combat to a large spirit creature. You could side with the good spirit or the evil one and choose which she turned into. Always liked that character.

I think you'd want to have some powers to implement this but it'd be cool for a shapeshifter class as well.

 

[Aramax]

The only modification I would make to synthsist is ripping the pages out of my book

 

[Henry]

You suggestions would make it a class I wouldn't want to play because, as you said, one dismissal, and the Summoner is pretty silly. Take a fighter's main weapon away, and he's still a pretty dangerous dude with a backup weapon or improvised one; send a spell-resistant critter against a wizard, and he has other spells to circumvent it, or he can support the other PCs so that they can get rid of the creature; take a cleric's holy symbol, and he can still totally rock heavy armor and a hard-punching weapon. One class feature being the sole thing a class gets just makes a weak, undesirable class. That's why so few anti-magic zones exist in modules -- you don't want to make the wizard a commoner. Same thing with summoner, take his eidolon and spells away and he's screwed.

By the same token, you could make his evolution points more flexible, which would help, but the tone of the class would change - he becomes a shapeshifter/metamorph, not a conjuration master.

 

[1Mac]

By the same token, you could make his evolution points more flexible, which would help, but the tone of the class would change - he becomes a shapeshifter/metamorph, not a conjuration master.

That's exactly what I'm proposing, precisely to avoid the one-weapon problem you mention while still toning the class down. It's what I meant when I called it "a combined pet-master and transmuter." He gains transmuting powers, a powerful ally, and lots of summons, all from some extraordinary or otherworldly source.

It's a concept that covers a surprising number of themes, depending on what that source is. With a nature-fey source, you get a spell-less druid. Bind him to one of the outer planes, and you get a theurge/karcist/binder. A necromancer summons zombies, infuses himself with negative energy, and gets a helpful undead buddy in the bargain. Make all the summons and evolutions mechanical and you've got a gearheaded artificer. Etc., etc.

 

[marcielle]

I think what you wanna do is mash up the archetypes. Have you seen Evolutionist? I suppose you could give a summoner benefits of both archetypes and take away spellcasting, but maybe keep some way to counter dispelling?

 

[dragonis111]

My idea is simple but effective I think, take away the spells and just give the summoner more evolution points and perhaps the ability to change evolutions on the fly to adapt to the current situation.