Dannyalcatraz said:
You misunderstand- the layman wouldn't be suspicious of the person claiming to be a lay minister while having no divine spells at his power, but the person claiming to be a fully-fledged priest who does so while being unable to cast divine spells. (And AFAIK, nearly every faith on earth distinguishes between the two with titles, physical symbols of office, and so forth.
I misunderstand nothing. You require your "fully fledged priests" to be able to cast divine spells. You do not link the badge of office to the knowledge retained by the individual, nor their ability with people, nor their skill in healing the sick and comforting the dying, nor the quality with which they give sermons or spread the word. You instead only require spells. I think that there are more interesting ways of determining someone's fitness to be a priest than rubber-stamping them if they can cast
Bless.
I suggest that your campaign world will be overrun with PC classes; if every religion's heirarchy required the casting of divine spells, then there would either be very few religions indeed because all of the Cleric classed NPCs were filling the ranks of one church, or there would be hardly any heirarchies at all. Or you wouldn't be able to swing a cat by the tail without hitting a PC classed NPC.
And besides, the party already had a guy who could do that, and was called a "wizard."
And he didn't do a very good job at killing the undead from a distance with his bang-bang spells. Why don't you have your poor melee PC's player compain to him. Or to the archer. Or maybe realize that priest (in-game, profession) =/= cleric (class, game mechanic), and he made a calculated risk by charging undead. And if he keeps whining, then tell him to roll up another elf and grow up.
Did you ever see Eric the Viking?
The Christian priest couldn't even perceive the evidence of the polytheistic world around him- the Norse gods, monsters from their legends- all invisible to him because his faith in monotheism was so strong, he couldn't accept any of their belief system at all.
While not going quite that far, I have no problem with a religious culture that has no exposure to malevolent undead having no power over them.
So you don't have a problem with a culture that never encounters undead.
And your problem with the cleric class is that when you do encounter undead, your fellow players will be upset with you for not turning because now they've died.
And you're unwilling for your cleric to
discover that he does have power over undead, but he simply never realized it because he's never encountered them before.
Ok. But it's you that's making that choice to hobble yourself.
I have no problem with a religious culture that has no exposure to malevolent undead having no power over them.
This is not all you do. You also reject the notion that priests of a god whose worshippers have had no exposure to undead may discover powers they had hitherto had no opportunity to use. You say that because your character has had no exposure, he
must not have power over them.
Metagaming has zero to do with it.
Unless a commoner can tell the difference between the mechancis of a Bard's
Break Enchantment and a Cleric's
Remove Curse, which is metagame knowledge, then that commoner won't be able to discriminate that the two were different at all.
The commoner has no knowledge of spell lists. Or material components. Or the mechanical difference twixt arcane and divine. The only thing he can see are the effects. And if the effects are the same, as they would be with those two spells confronting a
Bestow Curse, then how does the commoner "out" the bard as a liar?
Even in 1Ed, there were discussions about how regular people in a campaign world distinguished between arcane and divine magic. They don't distinguish between the two by what they can both do, but rather on the evidence of what one can do and the other can't. Even a barbarian, it was said, could tell the difference between what his village shaman could do and what a mage could...and one was good and the other was bad.
A first level cleric can't cast
Ressurection, and may be killed by a magical mishap if he triest to cast it from a scroll. Does his inability to cast it make him less of a priest? Does his death at the hands of divine magic too powerful for him to control make him a liar?
If you're going to define things by what people
can't do, then that 1st level cleric suddenly isn't a real priest.
Even in the real world where magic does not exist, certain powers and abilities were ascribed to priests and other holy persons, others to warlocks, witches, sorcerers, wizards and the like...and there was seldom a question as to which was which. All without real, repeatable evidence such as what you'd have in an FRPG.
The abilities ascribed priest and holy persons were to protect, to inspire, and to heal, among others. Thus the cleric's spell list is littered with spells that do those things. After a while, clerics get to smite, too.
So if the power to protect, inspire and heal are present, then would that person be treated more like a priest? Would it seem likely that they are blessed?
If in the DnD magic-is-real-world they could cast:
Cure Light Wounds
Remove Fear
Summon Monster X (Celestial Beings)
Calm Emotions
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Heroism
Would they seem like a priest? Because every one of those spells is on the Bard spell list.
they minister to their flock of believers and seek to expand it through demonstration of their god's powers, and not all of it is in combat.
I've been mentioning Diplomacy, Profession (Priest), Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (History) for a reason.
And what proportion of your NPCs are classed with PC classes that every priest can cast spells?
When you need a blessing, a religious ceremony, healing and so on, you go to your priest. When you need a good harvest, you go to your priest.
- "Bless you and yours, my child." Easily said. And said by an ordained bard makes it none the less a blessing.
- Religious ceremonies are rituals more do to with Knowledge (Religion) than spellcasting.
- Healing? There is a Heal skill.
- A priest can pray for a good harvest like Army padres can pray for clear skies.
Almighty and most merciful Father, we humbly beseech Thee, of Thy great goodness, to restrain these immoderate rains with which we have had to contend. Grant us fair weather for Battle. Graciously hearken to us as soldiers who call upon Thee that, armed with Thy power, we may advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies and establish Thy justice among men and nations.
Was Patton's 3rd Army Chaplain any less a priest because he couldn't cast spells?
When you want someone brought back from the dead, you go to your priest. When you have comitted a sin against your faith, you have to go to your priest to attone (with a little AND a big "A").
A bard priest would not be able to do this, no. But if commoners saved up enough coppers to afford a Raise Dead, I'm sure the bard would be able to take them to someone who could. Same for Atonement.
But unless you populate your world with 90% PC classes level 9 or higher, then most priests arn't going to be able to cast
Raise Dead either.
When you need an enemy brought low, you'd go to the scary woman on the edge of the marsh. When you need somebody to blast a powerful monster, you find that guy with the beard who lives in that tower in the foothills. You need a potion, you go to the alchemist over in the scholar's section of town...
All of these are true. And none of them necessitate particular classes, though you seem to think they do.
The scary woman needs not be a witch (sorcerer w/ DMG spell list). The bearded guy need not be a sorcerer. The alchemist need not be a wizard. Saying so is like saying the alchemist must be a gnome; simply because it's likely doesn't mean it must be the case.
Now, you may not believe in this because it is not your faith...
I am catholic too, since you ask.
But it does have something to do with the candidate's abilities.
Holy Orders and other sacraments (or their equivalents in other religions) aren't just secular rituals like handing out a college degree. They are both recognition of achievement and devotion and also the bestowing of powers and responsibilities...
...but a person who has had Holy Orders (or its equivalent) bestowed upon him has a connection to the divine that lesser members of the faith do not. It is a divine blessing that sets him apart from others, but also gives him certain responsibilities.
Yep. That connection is the strength of his faith, is it not? And his responsibilities include supporting and strengthening the faith of the community; something better done with Diplomacy and Knowledge (Religion) than with
Blade Barrier.
In a game where divine Avatars and unholy Demons could potentially walk the earth, a candidate for initiation into full priesthood would certainly show evidence of his deity's blessings (before or after the ceremony, depending upon the faith), the most common form of that would be in the casting of divine spells.
This is also a game where the vast majority of individuals take NPC classes.
Or are the blacksmiths and farmers and merchants in your game classed with PC classes?
Yes, avatars can be running around. Yes, people can summon unholy Demons to walk the earth. And yes,
some of the priesthood will be able to cast spells. They are the exceptional people, not the rule. At least they are in my game and incidently in the recommended DMG breakdown of NPC classes.
Or perhaps they take religion a bit more seriously than you do.
I take religion in my campaign world very seriously. I'm just don't restrain my thinking to, "He's a priest, so there is no way he could be anything but a cleric." As a matter of fact, like real world religions,
most priests can't cast spells. Most are experts with ranks in Knowledge (religion), Diplomacy, Knowledge (History), Sense Motive among other skills. Most priests busy themselves with spreading the word of their religion and advocating on behalf of their church. They do indeed have something that sets them apart from the lay community, and that is the intensity and the intelligence of their
faith.
It is the rare and blessed (or cursed) that can cast spells. Most of these people are indeed priests, and they rise quickly through the heirarchy, but they are far and away the minority.
