D&D 5E Does this start PUN PUN?

[Stalker0]

Pun Pun may have been the most broken, but I was always a big fan of the 3.5 "jumplomancer". An insane broken build in which a character was able to jump stupidly high in the air and upon landing everyone within like a mile was instantly their fanatical devoted servants and would do anything for them, even die. Aka the build had a crazy insanely high jump check combined with some ability that converted the jump score into diplomacy, and then used the epic diplomacy rules.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, so I have been a way a while, but I was under the (maybe mistaken) impression that all of the major loop holes from 3e/3.5 where closed... but now I start seeing crazy things and I am left wondering if power builds are back.

(Breif history: Pun Pun was an all powerful kobold that had NI for all stats and powers, where NI stood for near infinite because you could make them as arbitrary high as you want by repeating a simple power game. this was orginally done with like a 15th level wizard or sorcerer, but as more books came out and more rules it got to the point where all you needed was 1 magic item and even a 1st level kobold caster could do it...)

Now I doubt we are there, but I just saw a broken (much slower) way to build a single character into a world conquering game breaking army. (prereq level 17 wizard)

So you start by preparing wish, then you cast simulacrum on yourself.

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now you rest and get back your simulacrum spell. (You can't cast it again or else your simulacrum goes away) but now you have it back and your Sim (sim 1) cast wish to duplicate simulacrum and targets you.

now notice that there can be any number of simulacrums of any target, as long as a different caster casts the spell... now that new sim (sim 2) has all of your spells including simulacrum... so he casts it and gets another (sim 3). Sim 3 then casts his simulacrum spell getting sim 4.

• Casting Time: 12 hours
• Range: Touch
• Components: V S M (Snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell)
• Duration: Until dispelled
• Classes: Wizard

so no it took 12 hours to make sim 1, it took 8 hours to rest and regain simulacrum, then 1 action for sim 1 to wish for sim 2. It took sim 2 12 hours to make sim 3, and 12 hours to make sim 4... so 2 days (44 hours and 6 seconds to be exact) you now have 4 copies of you plus your own 17th level wizard self... 1 copy is down the 9th level slot, and the other 3 are down a 7th level slot... if you are in a wish each could use wish instead, but lets pretend you are not in a hurry... you have multiplied you power pretty heavily here. it has already cost 1,500 gp x4 too (not alot at that level but not pocket change, and the only thing stoping this from being NI,)

Now remember that each of these wizards ARE you, but each listens to the one behind it in line as well...

also if you wait 3 more levels (yes yest everything breaks at 20th level) each of those simulacrums have 2 7th level slots, as such you are not even down that 1 level of spell.


OKay sounds bad but really it isn't that broken... I mean it's not like one of you can just wish for powdered ruby... oh wait you can.

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You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.

every other day you can just wish another 2 days worth of components out of pure magic...

even going slow if given a 3 month "down time" you could create 1 sim a day... and on day 90 have 91 of you walking around, you at 100% and the other 90 at down 1 spell slot and at half hp...

If any player ever tried that in my game, it would be instant death for his PC. Not out of any sort of vindictiveness, but if he can think of it and it works, some other wizard 1000 years ago thought if it first and spent 1000000 or so wishes to make sure that anyone else trying it dies.

 

[Seramus]

In fact, wasn’t that exactly what the Manshoon war was?

Yep! Canonical Clone and Simulacrum hilarity! The only thing missing were Ice Assassins.

 

[cbwjm]

My players' characters have never been high enough for simulacrum to be an issue, but I'm thinking of adding a single line to the spell which says a caster can have only a single simulacrum of them at any one time. Stops this sort of stuff before it begins.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

My players' characters have never been high enough for simulacrum to be an issue, but I'm thinking of adding a single line to the spell which says a caster can have only a single simulacrum of them at any one time. Stops this sort of stuff before it begins.

This would make the use of the wish spell to replicate simulacrum more powerful as one facing an enemy wizard with his simulacrum could wish for a simulacrum of his enely and in a single cast remove the enemy's ally and get one. Though if the simulacrum is at the same place (or even on the same plane) as the caster, he's doing it wrong.

My nerf is based on @Maxperson's analysis that some wizard of old must have thought about it. Except it's totally open-knowledge: said wizard is known in setting, the players have met him and they know that no mortal spellcaster can cast 7th level spells in setting because he kills them first out of fear that they attract the attention of nasty extradimensional enemies with their powerful spellcasting. He has done the infinite simulacrum and wishes trick. At this point he's an uneasy ally of the PCs but can turn bbeg as soon as they'll cross the line. It will be a good opponent for a 15th level party to deal with. I haven't decided yet if the wizard has lost his marbles or if his analysis about nastier beings is totally exact and he's choosing the lesser of two evils. At the revolving of this arc they will be around level 20 and the campaign will be close to an end anyway.

 

[Hussar]

Great until somebody drops a dispel magic into the mix.

My personal favorite was always the peasant rail gun.

Heh. Fun thought experiments.

 

[cbwjm]

This would make the use of the wish spell to replicate simulacrum more powerful as one facing an enemy wizard with his simulacrum could wish for a simulacrum of his enely and in a single cast remove the enemy's ally and get one. Though if the simulacrum is at the same place (or even on the same plane) as the caster, he's doing it wrong.

My nerf is based on @Maxperson's analysis that some wizard of old must have thought about it. Except it's totally open-knowledge: said wizard is known in setting, the players have met him and they know that no mortal spellcaster can cast 7th level spells in setting because he kills them first out of fear that they attract the attention of nasty extradimensional enemies with their powerful spellcasting. He has done the infinite simulacrum and wishes trick. At this point he's an uneasy ally of the PCs but can turn bbeg as soon as they'll cross the line. It will be a good opponent for a 15th level party to deal with. I haven't decided yet if the wizard has lost his marbles or if his analysis about nastier beings is totally exact and he's choosing the lesser of two evils. At the revolving of this arc they will be around level 20 and the campaign will be close to an end anyway.

Seems a good use of the wish spell if it gets rid of the enemy's simulacrum. I mean it's a wish spell, it's meant to be powerful.

Your nerf is also good if you want some crazy wizard running around limiting magic in the setting. Not really for me though.