Does this unbalance anything?

[wayne62682]

I'm planning on running the Savage Tide Adventure Path online in the near future and one of the changes I made was to replace the Fighter with the "Thug" Unearthed Arcana variant (4+ skills, add Bluff, Gather Info, Knowledge [local] and Sleight of Hand as class skills, lose prof. with medium and heavy armor). However, I decided to grant back the 1st level bonus feat (after all, you give up two feats). A potential player brought up that he wants a noble sort of warrior type, and asked if I would allow Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility) and Tumble as class skills as well. He doesn't want to take the Swashbuckler class, however due to the crunch (and doesn't enjoy class dipping).

Would it be that unbalanced if I add Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility) to the "Thug" class (that I really should rename, but don't know what)? I doubt I'll add Tumble because that should be the domain of rogues and swashbucklers.

 

[Celebrim]

Switching out skills is something I'd usually allow, but this characters wants to add two of the better and more important skills in the game to the class list and hasn't suggested anything that he's giving up. What's more, you've already given the player a freebie (the extra bonus feat at 1st level).

Losing medium and heavy armor proficiency isn't that big of deal, and especially in the context he probably wouldn't play a character with heavy armor even if he had the proficiency. Heavy armor is often more trouble than its worth, especially in the context of adventures in the jungle, at sea, and so forth.

This player is IMO scamming you. It's not so much that what he's asking for is broken and game disrupting, its that he wants something for nothing.

At the least, in exchange for Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility), and Tumble, the character should be giving up Gather Info, Knowledge (Local), and Sleight of Hand, but really even that is a scam because the skills he's gaining are more important than the ones he's losing.

However, that said, as long as he made the trade, I think I'd still give the player what he wants because:

1) The Thug class strikes me as slightly underpowered.
2) The player is trying to scam you into giving him something for nothing, but provided he makes the trade (3 skills for 3 skills) and doesn't just get 3 free new skills for nothing, what he's getting is pretty slight and fairly flavorable and won't really disrupt your game.

Just make sure your players understand that as a general rule, you aren't going to let players swap skills freely and that this is a one time deal.

If the player balks at trading the three skills out, suggest that he can take a background feat ('Unusual upbringing') that adds the three skills to the class skill list of any one class of his choosing.

 

[Arkhandus]

It doesn't unbalance anything to give the fighter 4 + Int mod skill points per level, nor to give them a few extra class skills. I'd suggest leaving out Tumble, as you said, and maybe removing one of the other skills that the Thug variant would normally provide.

Having social skills on a warrior-type is nothing to get worried about; roguish types are still sneakier and craftier, still have more skills, and still have better tricks in other areas.

I don't see any problem leaving in the 1st-level bonus feat.

To note though, the variant also gives up shield proficiencies, which you didn't mention. Don't forget that.

This alternate thug could just be called a cavalier, fencer, knight (unless you're using the class from PHB2), or whatever.

As a note though, going with this stuff would make the fighter a bit stronger overall (though only outside of combat). I would suggest, if using the Thug variant (or this nobler thug variant), giving ordinary fighters a cookie too (the ones that don't take either variant), just not a big one. Stronger Will saves maybe, I dunno (probably not; maybe stronger Reflex saves though?).

 

[Celebrim]

I would suggest, if using the Thug variant (or this nobler thug variant), giving ordinary fighters a cookie too (the ones that don't take either variant), just not a big one. Stronger Will saves maybe, I dunno (probably not; maybe stronger Reflex saves though?).

Well, its a little bigger than a cookie, but I'd previously decided that the fighter, while maybe the strongest class at first level and the center of the party up to about 7th, starts falling behind after that compared to the exponential increases in ability that the spell caster classes get.

So, I've made several changes to the fighter.

Add Profession to the class skill list.
3 skill points per level.
Bonus feats now at the following levels: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th.

Plus I've tried to make the upper level feats something special and not just extra damage.

 

[wayne62682]

I'm actually having this variant completely replace the PHB Fighter class, since heavy armor wouldn't be good in Savage Tide anyways So no need for a cookie to the normal class since it doesn't exist in this campaign.

I'll carry on with it as I planned, then. Thanks for the replies!

 

[StGabe]

FWIW, I would also make him pay a bit. I would say "no" to his initial request however offer him the ability to take a feat that would grant him access to more class skills. One feat for two class skills perhaps. You are already giving him a free feat so he should be able to pull this off.

 

[Eloi]

My opinion: No Tumble, as you said. Nick that Sleight of Hand from the list.. and perhaps make him owe a favor to an NPC which will need to be repaid sometime, probably at great personal inconvenience.

Someone made an investment in that Thug, and the bill *will* come due..

 

[paradox42]

There is a feat in the 3E Oriental Adventures (I think) that makes two skills chosen when the feat is taken "permanent" class skills that are always class skills for the character regardless of class. I believe it's called Versatile.

Allow the player this feat, and the character concept becomes workable- he should at least have to give up the feat though, otherwise the class is Just Better than the Swashbuckler.