Does Water Breathing allow spell casting?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Water is rather heavier and is not at all compressable like a gas is, which would make it much harder to set into vibration.
Don't try this at home, though

Uhh, no. Generally speaking, the closer you get to a solid, the better it will carry vibration. Vibration doesn't carry through a void, and that includes the space between molecules in the substance.

But enough physics...

To me this is really along the same lines as the "How Does Darkvision Work?" argument. I don't think the game is generally served by delving into the physics of sound vibration.

With Water Breathing, you can speak and hear underwater. It's magic.

As others here have said, that only covers the V component, however. I would require a concentration check for somatic components, unless they also have freedom of movement.

 

[Jeremy]

Oh, in case it was important, without freedom of movement or enough weight to plant you to the bottom, there are rules for movement and attacks with slashing/bludgeoning/missile weapons underwater as well.

And the invisibility spell is also addressed. Invisible creatures leave a visible bubble of the area where no water is, but still gain a 20% miss chance for their state.

 

[kreynolds]

but if they were say... naked

Admit it. You'll come up with any excuse to get your players naked.

 

[kreynolds]

With Water Breathing, you can speak and hear underwater. It's magic.

Try speaking with your throat full of water, then let me know how that goes. Point in fact, you need air (not oxygen) to make sounds. Without air, you make no sounds. Water will not cut it. We can hear your voice when you speak because you are forcing air through your voicebox, which functions similar to a guitar. Without air, you speakin' a word. I don't think this spell goes that far.

Also, I understand it's magic, and look at this. Alter Self is a 2nd level wizard spell that, with a single casting, allows you to breathe underwater if you give yourself gills, and you can do so for only 10 minutes/level. Water Breathing, on the other hand, is a 3rd level wizard spell that, with a single casting, allows you to breathe underwater for 2 hours/level, though you can divide this up between your friends.

IMO, the breathing room that the spell gets for being higher level does not include the ability to speak underwater because all breathing room for being higher level was chewed up with the much longer duration and the ability of the caster to split the spell up among friends. Of course...that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

 

[hong]

Admit it. You'll come up with any excuse to get your players naked.

I'm thinking of my group now, and I'm thinking that there's no way in hell I want to see them naked.

Of course, Xarlen's group may be different. In which case, Xarlen, where are you located? Please email me. I'll pay the airfare, even.

 

[Jeremy]

I don't believe it works that way from my experiments in the pool.

For one, when I try it, I don't have water in my throat, the air in my mouth (CO2 and O2) keeps the water out unless I suck water in to displace the air. Even then, it'd just be in my mouth, not my throat.

Also, as it is not just oxygen I'm speaking through, but also exhaled waste gases and other trapped gasses that I inhaled when I began to hold my breath, I don't believe your "more than oxygen necessary for speech" theory to hold true.

When I tried to form words, the sounds were muddled and not understandable by my friend. But then, I didn't have a spell cast on me.

So my guess would be that if I were able to breath liquid I would be able to speak.

Then again look at Abyss. When Ed Harris is in his little emnionic fluid bubble, he doesn't speak, he uses a keyboard. But of course he can hear fine.

But again, he didn't have a spell cast on him. I'd say in the D&D fantasy setting, that Water Breathing allows underwater speech as there really is no other way to do it short of a necklace of adaptation.

If you are suggesting that Alter Self would allow underwater speech, I'd have to say that gills on the exterior of the throat (the popular place to put them in Sci Fi on humanoids), would not affect speech. But I have no idea how creatures such as tritons or merfolk are capable of speech, so maybe a caster familiar with them would simply change his anatomy to fit that.

In any case, I don't think fictional magic requires such a deep level of understanding from us. Suffice it to say, the wizards who invented the spells knew what they were doing and the magic of either spell allows speech underwater when used in this manner.

Or not. Your viewpoint may differ.

 

[Uller]

From a rules perspective all this talk about the properties of water and air and whether or not sound travels better in water, etc. are irrelevant.

From the SRD for water breathing:

Water Breathing

Transmutation
Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3, Water 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creatures touched
Duration: 2 hours/level (see text)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely. Divide the duration evenly among all the creatures the character touches.

The spell does not make creatures unable to breathe air.

From the section on spell components:

V (Verbal): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, the character must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell he tries to cast if that spell has a verbal component.

So...a verbal component must be spoken in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag ruins the spell. The description for water breathing makes no mention of having an effect on the ability to speak underwater...in general spells do exactly what they say they do and nothing more, so the spell does not affect speaking under water.

So a DM must apply the same rule to casting spells with verbal components underwater irregardless of whether or not the caster is under the effect of a Water Breathing spell. Can the character speak with a strong voice under water? Probably not. Even if his lungs, mouth and throat fill with water, the ability to speak in a clear strong voice will likely be compromised enough to make it impossible unless the character in question is a creature who naturally breathes(and speaks) under water.

As for material components...that probably depends upon the component:

A gem?...not affected by water.

A strand of spider web? Spiders spin webs under water...the only question is, can the caster get a hold of it in water? I'd say it can work if the caster got it in his hand prior to going in the water.

Dust? I've never seen wet dust.

A drop of acid? It would instantly be diluted to the point that it was no longer acidic...

etc.

 

[kreynolds]

Then again look at Abyss. When Ed Harris is in his little emnionic fluid bubble, he doesn't speak, he uses a keyboard. But of course he can hear fine.

That's what I've said half a dozen times already. Human beings are not physically capable of talking using fluid as a medium, neither are any land based creatures.

My other argument, is that the spell isn't high enough level to allow speach, as it already has a really long duration and the spell can be split up among your friends with a single casting.

Who knows.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Try speaking with your throat full of water, then let me know how that goes. Point in fact, you need air (not oxygen) to make sounds. Without air, you make no sounds. Water will not cut it. We can hear your voice when you speak because you are forcing air through your voicebox, which functions similar to a guitar. Without air, you speakin' a word. I don't think this spell goes that far.

Well, I guess if you are going at it from a scientific standpoint (the folly of which is expertly addressed by your namesake with the K in his name ), you have to ask yourself what the spell is doing.

Does it merely sustain you without the need for air at all (do you have to "hold your breath" so to speak)? Does it turn the water to air before it hits your lungs? Or does it allow you to actually breathe water as if it were air? (Filling your lungs with water?)

In either of the latter two cases it doesn't really matter. Your vocal chords, like a guitar indeed, will vibrate whether you force a stream of air past them or a stream of water past them (or pluck them with your finger).

If you like we can go farther and discuss plosives and fricatives and glottal stops, all that crap...

Also, I understand it's magic...

Oh, that's all right then. Cause I have better things to do with my game time than sit around the table and debate the physics of sound vibration with the players. Darkvision just works. Invisiblity just works. Water breathing just works.

Of course it is equally valid-- without getting into the whys and hows-- to decide that Water Breating just doesn't work. Fair enough!

Wulf

 

[kreynolds]

Well, I guess if you are going at it from a scientific standpoint (the folly of which is expertly addressed by your namesake with the K in his name ),

Huh?

you have to ask yourself what the spell is doing.

It let's you breathe water, hence the name, Water Breathing. Note that it's not called Water Breathing & Speaking.

Does it merely sustain you without the need for air at all (do you have to "hold your breath" so to speak)? Does it turn the water to air before it hits your lungs? Or does it allow you to actually breathe water as if it were air? (Filling your lungs with water?)

It doesn't matter. The spell let's you breathe water, not speak it.

In either of the latter two cases it doesn't really matter. Your vocal chords, like a guitar indeed, will vibrate whether you force a stream of air past them or a stream of water past them (or pluck them with your finger).

Oh, so you've tested this theory? You've allowed your throat and lungs to fill with water and you attempted to speak? It must have worked, because I can't think of any logical reason why you would even suggest that you, a human being, would be capable of such a feat.

By the way, you brought up the "scientific" part this time, not me.

If you like we can go farther and discuss plosives and fricatives and glottal stops, all that crap...

Why bother? You still can't talk underwater. Our voiceboxes don't work that way, no matter how "edjucated" you attempt to make yourself appear.

Oh, that's all right then. Cause I have better things to do with my game time than sit around the table and debate the physics of sound vibration with the players.

Agreed, which is why we're debating it here. It helps tremendously when you make a ruling at the table and actually have something to back it up.

Darkvision just works.

Yes, but nobody suspects that Darkvision allows you to taste color.

Invisiblity just works.

Yes, but nobody suspects that Invisibility allows you to smell sounds.

Water breathing just works.

Yes, but there's no logical reason to suspect that it allows you to speak underwater, specifically because the spells says nothing about allowing you to speak.