Does Water Breathing allow spell casting?

[Jeremy]

Can the character speak with a strong voice under water?

Yes. This part I've personally verified. Can it be understood by others? No. Is that necessary? Unknown.

As for material components...that probably depends upon the component:

A gem?...not affected by water.

A strand of spider web? Spiders spin webs under water...the only question is, can the caster get a hold of it in water? I'd say it can work if the caster got it in his hand prior to going in the water.

Dust? I've never seen wet dust.

A drop of acid? It would instantly be diluted to the point that it was no longer acidic...

etc.

Wow.. I don't envy you the task of micromanaging that if you ever run into underwater combat.

As I said, the only official rules on the subject state that spells work fine underwater except for fire spells which require a spellcraft check to work. If you want to make it more complicated or difficult, go right ahead. Though examining the effectiveness of every component on a case by case basis might be a bit overkill.

It'd be easier to state spells with a V component require this spell or have this chance of failure, spells with a S component require this spell or have this chance of failure, and/or spells with a M component require this spell or have this chance. That way you can pick and choose and make it as uncomplicated or as "realistic" as you like without bogging down the game and making what would be an exciting cinematic and very different encounter and excercise in looking up information in books, statistics, probablilities and number crunching and loosing all the fun.

Of course, my personal opinion is that the spells take care of it, but if you do run it your way, you may need a simplifying mechanic.

 

[Jeremy]

To kreynolds: (Hard to handle multiple conversations in the same thread )

Over on Sean K Reynold's site, the namesake with the K Wulf was referring to, is an article on complaints about how realistically darkvision or infravision should work in a D&D game.

The point that is well set up there is that D&D doesn't handle physics well and that a simple explanation of "it's magic, it works" is more condusive to having fun than over analysis and extended manuals and house rules that complicated things so much in 2e.

And again, I must stress, that talking underwater does not fill your throat or even your mouth with water. So until the sound hits the water, it's the same sound it would make in open air. Past that point I'm not sure what happens. But having listened to underwater speakers in the pool while working out, I can tell you that not all sound comes across clearly through water even though physics clearly show that sound travels better through water than air.

So as far as I know, talking underwater works, we just aren't equipped to understand it. And that's BEFORE magic.

Remember, the wizards that created these spells knew what they were doing, and the Wizards of the Coast that wrote this book couldn't address every single little detail of everything (or even give us broad strokes on how to handle underwater combat until the Dragon Magazine). As there is no spell that is better suited to allowing verbal speech underwater than water breathing, and underwater combat is an interesting avenue, I'd suggest just going along with it. Though that'd hardly be any fun in a debate, so I may have to retract that statement.

Oh, and again, I did try this, and I didn't take physics, so my opinions for better or worse here are based on experience. I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing in the realm of physics in D&D.

 

[IceBear]

Question is, since there have been underwater adventures written in the past, how did spellcasters cast spells underwater in them? How could they do it in 3E at mid-levels?

When I played "Isle of Dread" (or whatever that module was with the Storm Giant rising out of the water) there was a lot of underwater adventuring, and it was assumed that potions of waterbreathing would be used by the PCs and that they could cast spells underwater.

I'd probably allow spellcasters to cast spells underwater with water breathing for simplicity, though with the armor check penalties added to 3E, I'd probably give some penalty to somantic components.

Again, I know that 3E isn't 2E, but in some cases (where the rules in 3E is weak) I extrapolate from 2E until something tells me otherwise

IceBear

 

[Jeremy]

Exactly.

<points to IceBear>

What he said.

 

[Jeremy]

I really should do small posts like this more often to get my post count up to give my arguments more weight. It's just reassuring to see 800+ or 2000+ posts next to the name of the guy who is advising you.

Or maybe I should just get off my tail and update my story hour. Especially since it's got an underwater combat in it...

 

[hong]

I really should do small posts like this more often to get my post count up to give my arguments more weight. It's just reassuring to see 800+ or 2000+ posts next to the name of the guy who is advising you.

Or maybe I should just get off my tail and update my story hour.

Dear Jeremy,

Get off your tail and update your story hour.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Oh, so you've tested this theory? You've allowed your throat and lungs to fill with water and you attempted to speak? It must have worked, because I can't think of any logical reason why you would even suggest that you, a human being, would be capable of such a feat.

This is a specious argument.

You're essentially saying that it is impossible to make sound underwater because a human being can't breathe underwater.

The spell takes care of that.

It's not a matter of theory, and it's quite logical. There is nothing about vibrating your vocal chords that requires air. You simply have to use your diaphragm push some medium past the vocal chords so that they vibrate. Doesn't matter if that medium is air or water. Take a rubber band and blow across it, it will vibrate. Stick the rubber band in front of the jet in a hot tub, it will vibrate. This is a matter of physics that is simply not open to debate.

Am I practiced at this? Obviously not. Is the average 3e wizard capable of it? Who knows. You can bet your ass if I *DID* have a spell that allowed me to fill my lungs with water and still breathe, and given that I had the foresight to put that spell into my spellbook against the possiblity I would be submerged, I'd spend a little time working it out.

Agreed, which is why we're debating it here. It helps tremendously when you make a ruling at the table and actually have something to back it up.

Why bother? You still can't talk underwater. Our voiceboxes don't work that way, no matter how "edjucated" you attempt to make yourself appear.

Believe me, I am happy with "It's magic, so it works." I can even be content with "It's not powerful enough magic, it doesn't work."

But if I was a player at your table and you attempted to make an "educated" ruling, well, I guess it "helps tremendously" if you are educated enough to know what you're talking about.

 

[kreynolds]

You're essentially saying that it is impossible to make sound underwater because a human being can't breathe underwater.

No, I am saying it's impossible to make intelligable sounds while underwater so as to qualify your speach as an appropriate verbal component. More importantly, if you are attempting to use water to speak, instead of air, it's impossible.

Take a rubber band and blow across it, it will vibrate. Stick the rubber band in front of the jet in a hot tub, it will vibrate. This is a matter of physics that is simply not open to debate.

So you're saying that if you stick your mouth right over the jet of a hot tub that you can speak clearly? Nah.

Am I practiced at this? Obviously not.

That's right. So you have no grounds upon which to stand to say otherwise. You can't speak using water as a medium and no air to push past your vocal chords, and since you haven't tried it, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Coming from someone that has in fact had their lungs filled with water and nearly drowned (that would be me), I can promise you, you can't make any sounds whatsoever, no matter how hard you try.

Believe me, I am happy with "It's magic, so it works." I can even be content with "It's not powerful enough magic, it doesn't work."

Same here. Obviously, I lean towards the latter.

But if I was a player at your table and you attempted to make an "educated" ruling, well, I guess it "helps tremendously" if you are educated enough to know what you're talking about.

See above.

 

[Jeremy]

Dear K: Don't get offended by Wulf.

Dear Wulf: That last statement could be considered an attack in the tone it's used. Kreynolds has no discernable anatomy so you do not get sneak attack damage.

Dear hong: I'm sorry. I am the guy they took the picture of for the definition of lazy. Friday morning?

Dear J: Pick up a few books on comedy, you've yet to make anyone laugh with your attempts at humor.

Edit: On a more serious note---

"Coming from someone that has in fact had their lungs filled with water and nearly drowned (that would be me), I can promise you, you can't make any sounds whatsoever, no matter how hard you try."

Sorry to hear that k. That's got to have been rough. Having much more friendly experiences (and many of them, being on the swim team for 4 years) with water though, I can assure you that it is possible to speak underwater. It is just simply difficult (impossible?) for someone else to understand you. Please see my previous posts (somebody read them ) for explanations of why and how this is possible.

 

[IceBear]

I'd still like to know what *WOULD* allow a spellcaster to cast spells underwater in 3E if you don't allow waterbreathing to do so.

In 2nd Edition, whole adventures where you ended up under the sea dealing with tritions and merfolk assumed that you could speak clearly underwater with water breathing.

Now, I know that things changed between editions, so this may no longer be valid, but what did they replace it with then?

IceBear