D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Horwath]

Whichever one fought like a skirmisher and not a tank. Or whichever one had a better melee line in the party so they weren't drawing all the aggro. That has far more influence than +1 AC and +1hp/level. Monks melee like rogues and two weapon rangers (and arguably two weapon fighters), not like sword and board.

If you are fighting brainless undead or beasts that works, if you have opponents with 8 Int or more, not so much.

 

[strawbellebelle]

If you are fighting brainless undead or beasts that works, if you have opponents with 8 Int or more, not so much.

The greatest irony is that the same players who meta-game and power-game then play with DMs who meta-game and power-game, treating enemies as omniscient and aware of who has one pooint less AC or one point less HP (but never doing things like knocking Barbarians out of rage), then convince themselves that kind of experience with poor players and poor DMs is representative of regular gameplay and class balance.

 

[Horwath]

The greatest irony is that the same players who meta-game and power-game then play with DMs who meta-game and power-game, treating enemies as omniscient and aware of who has one pooint less AC or one point less HP (but never doing things like knocking Barbarians out of rage), then convince themselves that kind of experience with poor players and poor DMs is representative of regular gameplay and class balance.

Guess that D&D needs to be benchmarked with powerplayers, both for PCs and DMs.

IF it works for them, it will work for all.

 

[Horwath]

One solution for Stunning strike;

Remove it.

Have Unarmed strike get 3 masteries(any except cleave) and that you can use 2 with each unarmed attack. Yes even Graze that is Dex based.

It will remove unreliability of Stunning strike from "best thing ever" to wasted Ki point.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Guess that D&D needs to be benchmarked with powerplayers, both for PCs and DMs.

IF it works for them, it will work for all.

Yeah, no. Then we get bland and imbalanced features because a certain segment of players expect everything to get free stuff with zero resource and action cost, and we get poorly-designed enemies because they have to balance them with the idea that some DMs treat enemies as all-knowing and able to see actual game-mechanics numbers.

One solution for Stunning strike;

Remove it.

Have Unarmed strike get 3 masteries(any except cleave) and that you can use 2 with each unarmed attack. Yes even Graze that is Dex based.

It will remove unreliability of Stunning strike from "best thing ever" to wasted Ki point.

"If a feature isn't overpowered or abusable then it has no point in existing."

 

[Horwath]

Yeah, no. Then we get bland and imbalanced features because a certain segment of players expect everything to get free stuff with zero resource and action cost, and we get poorly-designed enemies because they have to balance them with the idea that some DMs treat enemies as all-knowing and able to see actual game-mechanics numbers.

Just the opposite, powerplayers will find any feature that breaks the game, then that feature can be removed or toned down so it does not break the game.

Or as the saying goes, you need to break something first in order to fix it.

"If a feature isn't overpowered or abusable then it has no point in existing."

Feature needs to be powerful to be useful, but see above, not game breaking.


That is why I never had a problem with at-will scaling cantrips.
If a 17th level caster is using Action to do 4d10 damage, that that is an action thrown down the drain.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Just the opposite, powerplayers will find any feature that breaks the game, then that feature can be removed or toned down so it does not break the game.

The creators have done just that numerous times with the playtests for existing imbalanced features, and every single time the power-gamers flipped their lids about it.

Power-gamers fundamentally don't want balance—they want imbalance, so they can feel better than other players by picking the "optimized" classes and subclasses and feats and etc. It's why their expectation for Monks revolve around wanting the class to be the equivalent of a shonen anime protagonist who solos every villain and horde of enemies with ease.

 

[Horwath]

The creators have done just that numerous times with the playtests for existing imbalanced features, and every single time the power-gamers flipped their lids about it.

Power-gamers fundamentally don't want balance—they want imbalance, so they can feel better than other players by picking the "optimized" classes and subclasses and feats and etc. It's why their expectation for Monks revolve around wanting the class to be the equivalent of a shonen anime protagonist who solos every villain and horde of enemies with ease.

maybe they want more than one option per class that does not suck.

For monk you have Mercy and maybe Kensai
For ranger you have Gloomstalker and everything else is second tier.
For fighter you have echoknight, then lower is EK, BM, Runeknight, rest is waste of page count.

Point is, see what subclasses, classes, feats are the best and bump up the bottom tier to them. IF those top tier do not break the game. And anything from martial department does not break the game, not even close.

 

[strawbellebelle]

maybe they want more than one option per class that does not suck.

For monk you have Mercy and maybe Kensai
For ranger you have Gloomstalker and everything else is second tier.
For fighter you have echoknight, then lower is EK, BM, Runeknight, rest is waste of page count.

Point is, see what subclasses, classes, feats are the best and bump up the bottom tier to them. IF those top tier do not break the game. And anything from martial department does not break the game, not even close.

Or, just maybe...not give a hoot about what powergamers believe the only good classes are?

(frankly, I'm amused by the idea that Kensai is supposedly one of the only good Monk subclasses)

 

[Horwath]

Or, just maybe...not give a hoot about what powergamers believe the only good classes are?

hey, you can play dnd any way you want, but they know what works in combat and what not.

(frankly, I'm amused by the idea that Kensai is supposedly one of the only good Monk subclasses)

at least you get kensai shot so you can distance your paper class HP away from melee and still do decent damage.