Does Your Heather Have Two Mommies?

[Trickstergod]

Technically, Alter Self doesn't seem to specify whether it's possible or not.

Considering the change isn't pervasive enough to give you low-light vision if you turn yourself into an elf, I'd also say it isn't pervasive enough to give you a womb or fertile semen.

I am aware that changelings from Eberron can carry a child if born a male or impregnate someone if born female, but I'd call that a unique trait to changelings rather than the norm for any shapechanging short of Polymorph.

 

[Alzrius]

I use the guidelines laid out in the Book of Erotic Fantasy, which state that while alter self may let you change your gender, it won't let you procreate successfully as the opposite sex - that takes a polymorph or higher-level spell.

 

[S'mon]

Interesting. Reminds me of an old character of mine who tried to father a herd of pegasi while under a polymorph spell. GM ruled that it would require a 'Shapechange' spell to get that level of physical change.

That would be my ruling too.

 

[delericho]

It occurred to my girlfriend tonight that with Alter Self, it was possible for two women to have a child biologically.

That's going to depend very much on the game and on the DM. It would be a mistake to assume that the science of biology applies in the same way to a fantasy universe, and especially when discussing magical effects in that universe.

Personally, I would rule that only permanent (or instantaneous) magic would allow for that to happen. And in a "Wheel of Time" setting (or similar) I would go further and rule that there is something fundamental about maleness and femaleness such that no power (even a wish) can allow this.

In any event, it has never cropped up in my games.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Technically, alter self makes it possible to have a child with yourself.

Self-Cloning!

Interesting idea. If we want to speak science:
Does Alter Self change your DNA?
Doesn't it have to, otherwise how does the changed body work? DNA isn't just used for reproductive purposes, it is used to do all the chemical stuff our body needs to do to function.)If so, you won't really have a child with yourself, genetically speaking.
If it doesn't change your DNA, can you really produce Semen (that also survives outside your body? What happens to body parts removed from your Alter Self body? Don't they revert? (To whatever they revert, it wouldn't be able to start a new life, right?)

Of course, maybe magic is replacing everything your DNA does at this point. But then, all bets are off. Apparently, Dragon transformation magic does somehow retain Dragon DNA (at least in 3E). Or is this a property of the Dragon DNA, that it resists some shapechange or survives the end of the effect?

And if we don't use science, well, everything is possible and we don't have a real basis to guess what could happen. Though we might be able to discuss what would be interesting for the story or a character background to happen.

 

[roguerouge]

Since rules seem to be popping up on this issue... consider the following:

"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have..."

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities ..., natural armor bonus, natural weapons ..., racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth)."

"The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind."

And it's a transmutation spell.

 

[RangerWickett]

Does Alter Self have that caveat from most shapeshifting stuff that severed body parts revert to their natural form? Right off the bat, that would put a damper on women turning into men and impregnating other women, because the semen would turn into . . . eggs? I'm a bit fuzzy on thaumaturgical transgenderism.

And if a man was permanently transformed into a woman, and impregnated, we could get into a tricky "where does life start" discussion, to consider whether a baby grown in the currently-a-woman's womb counts as part of that person, or as a separate entity.

But we're taking this way too seriously for any game I'd run. For me, I'd just pick whatever made for the most interesting (and palatable) story, and run with it, genetics bedamned.

 

[krissbeth]

I just want to be sure about whether or not my lady-bard has options if she settles down with another woman.

 

[Janx]

Sub in Polymorph for Alter Self, same point.

I don't think it would count as 2 mommies, though somebody else might. My reasoning:

Let's start with naming our happy couple Norma and Polly. I think you can tell who's who. I'm going to assume a pregnancy occurs and a baby ensues.

By my definition, a mommy is the person who carried the baby to term, or supplied the egg, or female that raised the child because the birth mother wasn't around. Any other woman in the picture is merely a helpful extension of the family.

Norma supplied the eggg. Norma carried the baby. Norma had the baby. Norma is the mommy.

Polly didn't do any of the things Norma did, because Norma did them. Polly is not the mommy. She is the daddy.

Polly can't be the mommy until Norma stops caring for the baby, because Norma gets mommy credit for all the pre-birth tasks.

 

[Set]

Even if Alter Self were ruled not to be able to do this, an enterprising wizard with some extreme views about the usefulness of males might research a transmutation spell that could swap functional gender (but nothing else) and create her own 'Amazon enclave' of reproductively self-sufficient women who don't need no steenkin' menfolk.

As for using Alter Self to self-clone, yikes.

What happens to a male-transformed-into-a-female-and-impregnated when the spell wears off? What happens to the fertilized egg, if it's even had time to implant? Icky.

The flavor text describing dragons and fiends and whatever using their transmutation effects to father half-dragons and half-fiends and whatnot lays down the groundwork for this being an option, but I always kinda preferred the notion that dragons and fiends knew some ritual technique to infuse a person with 'draconic blood' or 'fiendish taint' without there being actual cross-species shenanigans going on. It also seemed a lot more palatable an option for a female dragon who wants some whip up some half-dragon servants, but doesn't want to get herself knocked up by the help (granted, I hadn't considered at that point the notion of the female dragon turning herself into a male and being the knocker-upper instead of the knocked-up...).