Doing away with inflexible race ability bonuses

[CapnZapp]

I'm wondering if Wizards see it as a problem how the racial +2 bonuses to abilities create strange situations where Dwarfs become (among) the best divine leaders, Halflings are natural Sorcerers, and many other cases? And more importantly, how the rules create lots of situations where a player can't just play 1) the race he likes, with 2) the class he likes; because the racial bonuses discourage the fun.

I'm wondering if there really is a balance issue here. Would anything break if all characters simply got to choose two stats, and got +2 to those?

(I'm guessing "no", because the game must already be balanced for the optimal choices, and as such this rule would only remove a lot of sub-optimal builds, where players have opted for a fun character rather than maximizing raw power. The only big issue is what to do with the human.)

I'm aware of several proposals where you can switch out one of your two racial bonus stats, but really, why not go the whole way and let people play the race-class combos they like?

(Yes, there is flavor of the race to be considered. But as I see it, it's fairly easy to explain that PCs are exceptional, and that the rare Dwarf could well be of above average Int, thus choosing the path of Wizard or whatever. Most players will not want to play Dwarf Wizards or Dwarf Archers anyway - the point is that as is the rules discourage it, quite needlessly discouraging plenty more combinations than motivated by any fluff reasons!)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sounded like the real problem was that it ENCOURAGES class/race combos that seem to violate the fluff for those races. It MAY also discourage some that are normally thought of as typical for a given race. I don't know of too many cases like that.

Switching to a 'take any bonus you want' system would seem to make the matter worse. It is now essentially irrelevant what race you are. Some racial traits will synergize better with some classes of course.

I think you kind of took a left turn there after the first thing you said onto "wouldn't it be great if any race can be anything." What your proposing is of course exactly that, and it will accomplish it in spades. Humans of course become essentially worthless. The simple cure for that is to have ALL characters get a 'free +2' to ONE stat. At that point it isn't even a racial bonus anymore, so why give any plus at all? If you are worried that characters will be weakened, then just give a few extra points in the stat array build step.

I think once you do that, humans are pretty close to being on par with the other races. If not then give them Action Surge as a free feat or something like that.

 

[CapnZapp]

What I'd like to discuss if "getting +2 to two stats" is the only way of flavorizing different race selections.

To me it seems the problems might just overshadow the benefits.

Solving the issue for humans should be treated as a secondary concern. First lets focus on doing races in general right, and only then fix it for special cases, such as humans.

Just because PCs can choose which abilities get the +2's doesn't mean all races become interchangeable. NPCs will remain unchanged, for one thing.

Perhaps one way forward is to apply a feat cost. So if you want to change your +2's, you need to take a feat for that (called something along the lines of "Unusual Heritage" perhaps).

This only makes sense if having to spend a feat is considered a lesser cost than having your +2's in the wrong places, of course.

I also feel it's worth mentioning this entire discussion only makes sense if losing out on a racial stat bonus (essentially one or two +1 bonuses that you get in places where they might do you less good) is a deal-breaker for you.

 

[cmbarona]

Honestly, I don't think it would cause too much of a ruckus to do this. Just allow +2 to any two stats for anyone; humans are still balanced as they are with the extra skill, at-will, and feat. This doesn't change the fact that race-specific bonuses remain race-specific, e.g., Action Surge still has Human as a prereq and Enlarged Dragonbreath is still something only Dragonborn can take.

 

[Garthanos]

I am more emotionally in favor of heavier enforcement of racial stereotypes
perhaps by adding benefits certain races gain if they do not take Arcana as a trained skill...(halflings get to use there luck ability twice mayhaps)

 

[evilbob]

Cap: I have tried exactly what you mentioned earlier: let all races have a floating +2 that they can decide, and they have to have at least one of the +2s listed for their race.

Honestly, it did not make any noticeable difference, power-wise. Players are happier because they can be the race they like without a "penalty," and the only real difference is that more folks are actually optimized - but mostly because you drew extra attention to it. Some folks aren't going to change their race choice regardless of the stats, and those people will just do better - or more specifically, they will be more even with those that do. Others will be happy to have more freedom, and the only thing you need to watch closely are the powergamers, as it gives them some incentive to find a powerful race/class combination that isn't normally used. However, since all races are supposed to be "even" in power level, this "shouldn't" matter. (But when everyone in the game is suddenly a half-elf or a drow, you might suspect something.)

I agree that humans are not really "nerfed" this way, either, since they still get all the human coolness. Then again, we didn't have anyone choose to be a human since they could switch around stats and wanted to play with it, so I cannot say for 100% certain.

Honestly I think it's a fine idea and doesn't hurt. The worst possible scenario is that your PCs are minutely more powerful. Eh.

 

[Obryn]

I think the main problem with this approach is that (for some races, anyway) there are feats which are intended to compensate for low prime stats.

The biggest one of these, IMHO, is Hellfire Blood, which makes Tieflings excellent Infernal warlocks, even though they have no CON bonus.

I think you could view Dwarven and Eladrin Weapon Training in the same manner.

-O

 

[Sadrik]

I am more emotionally in favor of heavier enforcement of racial stereotypes
perhaps by adding benefits certain races gain if they do not take Arcana as a trained skill...(halflings get to use there luck ability twice mayhaps)

Well, with some of the new racial bonuses it makes some of the races less traditional than they were before. (1/2 elf CON+CHA, 1/2ling DEX+CHA)

 

[Sadrik]

Racial bonus switcheroo is totally in line with many 4eisms.

This follows something that I was considering for a while now - adding in the penalties for the races and then allowing players to remove the penalty for a feat.

So Elves and Eladrin -2 CON
Dragonborn and Dwarves -2 DEX
Tieflings -2 WIS
Halflings -2 STR
Human none
Half elf change to "+2 to any" with no penalty

And again create a feat that removes the penalty.

To go with the OP's original concept you could list a possible number of places they can put their +2's, So for example a dwarf could have the option of putting their +2 in STR, CON and/or WIS - then let the players decide where they place their bonuses. But like Obryn says there are some feats that were placed in the game to "fix" certain races and make them more playable in traditional types with traditional types of magic or weapons. These feats are extremely powerful imho. So, making anychanges to the bonuses would have to also consider the effects of these powerful feats.

 

[Drkfathr1]

To go with the OP's original concept you could list a possible number of places they can put their +2's, So for example a dwarf could have the option of putting their +2 in STR, CON and/or WIS - then let the players decide where they place their bonuses.

I like this idea. Perhaps retain a +2 in the primary ability that each race is associated with, and then allow the other +2 to go on one of 2 or 3 other choices, specific to each race.

I could also see a string of Background bonuses that allow some races to swap out ability score bonuses based on a particular region or sub-culture.