Doing the Monster Math for the original MM

[AllisterH]

Indeed...this is my one concern about the MM3 Solo monsters.

You're not going to be simply wailing on Lloth by herself...

Wouldn't Eclavdra be right there with a whole set of Llth's reavers being ridden by Drow Exalted consorts?

How exactly are you locking down Lloth?

 

[Aegeri]

There are quite a few solos you can do this with, but you do need interesting terrain, and you generally need to avoid Soldier and Brute solos.

My Balor in another thread and Turaglas I just ran today (less than 30 minutes ago) disagree. Brutes aren't useless now. They do incredible damage and they aren't packing a tiny six shooter (aka +3 vs. AC and +1 vs. NADs) to a firefight with epic PCs (aka Howitzers) anymore.

I am finding that good power design will override a solos flaws. If it can do things, it can challenge players. If it cannot do enough things in a round it cannot challenge a party. Finding the balance between making sure a solo is fairly able to "do stuff", while not making it feel like you're unfairly making your players feel their power choices are irrelevant is the true challenge.

But I am firmly convinced with the MM3 damage and new maths assumptions using solos by themselves is viable - especially with simple terrain in their favor. I've had two of the most fun solo battles I've had since starting to run 4E two years ago, a MM3 upgraded Turaglas and my Balor.

Also soldiers aren't as sadistic to use anymore by themselves. You don't need to go overboard on defenses, EL + 2 is good enough now. I am becoming convinced if Wizards makes some kind of change to "until end of next turn" effects being instant and unstoppable lockdown, I honestly feel solos will be perfectly able to function as solos with all the new ideas about power design and damage.

Incidentally Turaglas is damn fun and awesome to run. Though he did fail a few too many expand recharge rolls Sad panda.

People get too stuck on the word SOLO. No Solo monster was meant to be used alone for an encounter. Every Solo was listed with 1 or 2 (sometimes 3) possible encounters at level that included them plus other monsters.

The problem with this is if a solo is taking up a good chunk of the EXP budget you must ask yourself "Is it contributing that to the encounter?". In someone like Lolths case, you can bet she's contributing her XP to the encounter and making those chaff creatures incredibly hard to deal with. That would be a fun and exciting encounter.

Is a purple worm really contributing its XP - five monsters worth - to an encounter? That's the key question with a solo. The other key question is, what is this solo doing that I can't do with a cheaper elite, more traps or terrain hazards in my XP budget? That's the question I ask now.

Edit: I also spotted the ridiculously dumb flaw in my purple worm, as well as the original one once someone pointed this out to me in the not dissimilar discussion in another thread. With bite as his only MBA he can't actually make opportunity attacks and grab a PC at the same time. That was so incredibly silly of me to overlook. I shall have a ponder and post a better version. I shouldn't really post initial "drafts" of something I make without considering all its interactions first.

 

[Atlemar]

I've been running two campaigns since 4e came out and both are on level 7. Thus, I'm thinking ahead to paragon but have no experience with it yet.

And one of my campaigns is themed around dragons.

So, when it comes time for my players to fight paragon and epic MM1 solos, would it be sufficient to use the Monster Builder, plug in the level and role and drag the appropriate powers into this new monster? Would that be sufficient to get the math right?

(They'll be facing some non-dragon MM1 solos, too, so my question is for all of them.)

 

[Aegeri]

And one of my campaigns is themed around dragons.

So, when it comes time for my players to fight paragon and epic MM1 solos, would it be sufficient to use the Monster Builder, plug in the level and role and drag the appropriate powers into this new monster? Would that be sufficient to get the math right?

(They'll be facing some non-dragon MM1 solos, too, so my question is for all of them.)

I rag on MM solos a lot, but some of the Dragons are actually okay out of the box. I think they could use another attack when bloodied, or something else just to get that extra damage in like in MM2/MM3 - but they aren't unreasonable. White Dragons as I mentioned already have +5 vs. AC and +3 vs. NADs for their adult and ancient forms. I suggest shuffling around some powers, Ice Tomb is a great candidate for a minor action ranged power but they do okay. Same with the Red Dragon and such.

Dragons do okay because their power design was already pretty good. To me it feels like later solos were modeled around dragons. With the exception of extra HP and defenses, with a little on the low side for actions MM dragons can do pretty well. Depending on the type. Black Dragons are grindy in my experience, mostly because of their ability to make PCs blind constantly to really frustrate melee characters. They have a big, will targeting AoE stun so that does a good job as well.

Taking the older dragons like Reds and Whites, just copying over their powers and then maybe shuffling the odd one into minor/triggered could be enough to be honest. Make them pick up an extra attack on draconic fury while bloodied and I think you'd be set. The builder will adjust all the other math, so it should work perfectly.

Now non-dragon solos you'll have to be specific. Some of them are god awful (The Purple Worm and Dracolich for example). Some of them are just awful, but maybe with better damage they might be a lot better - Hydras in this case could be a simple fix as they can't be dazed or stunned, a common thing that thwarts many solos. Orcus needs more than maths, he needs some new powers, some new ways of dealing with conditions and probably some better evil henchmen. The Orcus empowered from E3 is a better way of going for him. Other solos vary, but to be honest the beholder is probably okay due to its free attack action spam (with more damage he should be fine). Just need to be specific, but in general if it looks Dragon like: EG has a decent multiple attack standard action, something to do when bloodied, maybe a triggered action or so you might be able to get away with it.

My hope is still that wizards will revisit many of these solos and other monsters in the Monster Vault so we don't need to worry anymore.

 

[Atlemar]

Thanks. I don't want to say what non-dragon solos I'm using because some of my players might be reading.

Where do books between MM1 and MM2 fall? I'm thinking Open Grave and Draconomicon 1 in particular.

 

[Aegeri]

Draconomicon is alright, but again Dragons often do a pretty decent job and some of the epic dragons have some really interesting mechanics. Open Grave I haven't actually ran many of the monsters out of now I think of it, except the regular creatures. I have to my regret never got to play around with Vecna, I love his action point mechanic though. Maybe I should give a few of them a try and see how they go.

I do remember running the Thicket Dryad Lich. It was an absolutely terrible encounter, because I underestimated the amount of necrotic resistance my party could get. I think it took 4 rounds to bloody a PC. At the same time, she could keep them at reach with constant restrained conditions and so it was one of those combats that turned into an angry staring contest until one side (the dryad) spontaneously dropped dead of an unusual and sudden boulder to the face. It would have been better had I not macroed the monster wrong and added necrotic damage to powers that shouldn't have had it. Live and learn.

 

[Derulbaskul]

(snip) Restless Earth: Inspired from the earthquake dragon in MM3, this aura prevents grabs being ended from the purple worm by PCs simply throwing it away with pushes, pulls and slides. It punishes them with damage and can help slide them towards the purple worm - keeping them within reach. (snip)

I can't give you more XP but I just wanted to say how much I like your purple worm. You've made the purple worm into a proper solo monster and you have also highlighted how well-designed and well-chosen powers can make a 4E fight feel "realistic": your purple worm would play as one would imagine a purple worm would act if they really existed.

(Restless earth is brilliant, BTW.)

Good job.

People get too stuck on the word SOLO. No Solo monster was meant to be used alone for an encounter. Every Solo was listed with 1 or 2 (sometimes 3) possible encounters at level that included them plus other monsters.

As was stated above the Purple worm had this listed:

Level 18 Encounter (XP 9,800)
✦ 1 purple worm (level 16 solo soldier)
✦ 2 savage minotaurs (level 16 brute)
(snip)

Point taken but this, as with so many of the MM1 encounter groups, just doesn't seem like a purple worm encounter. The groups seemed to be designed around what roles would best go together rather than whether the group made sense.

I cannot see a purple worm with a pair of minotaurs except if it was having those minotaurs for lunch. Maybe some scavengers of some sort but not potential meals for the mindless worm.

Anyway a purple worm seems like a solo and should be designed as such. Aegeri's got it right, IMO.

 

[Aegeri]

I can't give you more XP but I just wanted to say how much I like your purple worm. You've made the purple worm into a proper solo monster and you have also highlighted how well-designed and well-chosen powers can make a 4E fight feel "realistic": your purple worm would play as one would imagine a purple worm would act if they really existed.

Actually since I wrote the original and now I've become very unhappy with it to be honest. Unfortunately I didn't fix some of the flaws the creature has anyway, like being vulnerable to powers that deny opportunity attacks (hence instantly breaking its grabs) and such forth. In addition to this, I completely overlooked the concept it couldn't make opportunity attacks and grab an enemy at the same time. This is a pretty big flaw, because it means the PCs can start feeling free to run wild around it. Archer rangers twin striking with prime shot will be having a field day.

​

Slam is basically its opportunity attack and how it can whack other PCs, while maintaining its grab on its main target, like a defender. The grab attack is moved to the start of the PCs turn and not the purple worms (preventing interrupts and reactions). I kept it as a free action so stunned would still prevent the extra damage - but he can still lay it on when dazed. It also gives it a versus AC attack, which the previous versions completely lacked. Loading up on NAD attacks always feels a bit cheap to be honest. Plus there are times when a monster will prefer to attack AC.

I added the poisonous sting to him as well, which is a minor action and is used to keep squishy characters adjacent to him (due to its slow/immobilize effects). I still hate that swallow takes up a gigantic essay to explain how its effect works though, but that's the problem with swallow as a mechanic. It really needs a consistent state like dominate and such, which explains how it generally works across all creatures. Swallow can be escaped from, but I imposed a penalty to compensate for that - making it a bit trickier.

Finally I removed ring brain, that was such a dumb power and what was I thinking? Instead I replaced it with a far more coherent and smarter power. Clasping Jaws was removed from an attack power and moved to a trait, now the purple worms grabs don't end if he can't make opportunity attacks (dazed, stunned and dominated - though I don't see him maintaining a grab while dominated for long). This also means a wizard with winged horde can't deny the purple worm its main thing, the ability to grab and chew toy a PC. It also makes the aura far more relevant to the purple worm, because forced movement becomes a more important way of breaking the grab and it brings the aura into play more. This should make the purple worm play uniquely, or at least more-so than it did before and be substantially more interesting.

Edit: Either way, I think this stat block represents the points made about how solos and monsters have changed made in the OP far better than the previous one. Which I shall leave up on the internet as my eternal shame. I should have caught the opportunity attack thing.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I added the poisonous sting to him as well, which is a minor action and is used to keep squishy characters adjacent to him (due to its slow/immobilize effects).

How about making the range on the tail something like 10 to illustrate that this is the tail end of this enormous worm? It'll also teach those pesky ranged combatants a lesson

 

[Aegeri]

I thought about that, but with the fact it doesn't lose grabs when dazed, stunned and similar conditions that normally ruin grabs I didn't want to "overload" it on advantages. It is obviously weaker to a party that stays at range and pelts it with things while its immobilized/slowed or similar. I wanted to keep that disadvantage and its bloodied ability will let it get back into the fight. Due to its ability to really harm forced movement, pushing it away constantly to keep it at range is fairly tricky to do without harming yourself in the process. So I wanted to make sure it had a tactically exploitable vulnerability in the lack of range it has.

Edit: The point was mostly just to make something that could be generally useful, showing general changes to power design (most solos these days have several options, often with move/minor attacks in addition to a standard) and how the new maths changes things.