Doing the Monster Math for the original MM
- Thread starter Aegeri
- Start date
Sadly no. Until end of next turn effects are generally the bane of every solo in existence and not many have an answer to it. Some almost completely ignore stun and daze, like Turgalas while others may lose an attack off their standard action (Hydras and Hydra fury as an example). There isn't any real consistency to this and ultimately to really fix you need a houserule or mechanic to solve it.
Lolth for example is a fantastic solo in MM3, but has absolutely no answer to being dazed, stunned or dominated repeatedly until the end of a PCs next turn. This is a pretty massive flaw in what is otherwise a great and very fun monster. In my playtests, if you apply her saves to daze, stun and dominate conditions in general (EG such solos always treat those conditions as save ends) it's nowhere near the issue.
But again, there isn't a simple answer and ultimately the DM has to solve this through clever power design or a houserule of some kind. You'll find there are multiple solutions and perspectives on this as well. Personally I've made a houserule that reads:
"Solo monsters treat all daze, dominate and stun effects as save ends".
That actually solved the problem for the most part, given that many upper level solos have immediate interrupt saves (Lolth), when they just save them like anything else it's nowhere near as "I win" as it was. Other monsters just lose a standard action attack or some other penalty, depending on how I design them.
That is an excellent point actually, MM1 creatures are even further behind than I thought! Remembering that the +40% to damage is applied universally on all attacks (roughly, 40% is only an estimate at best). When they become bloodied they should be doing roughly 50% more again (99% of the time this means an extra attack or some way of increasing damage - but an extra attack is simplest). So that actually adds to make a bigger difference between MM3 and MM1 creatures.
Last edited:
So continuing on with this topic, I thought I would give an example of a really bad MM creature and a potential way of "updating it". In this case I chose something particularly challenging, the Purple Worm. It's just so relentlessly terrible in every manner, because unlike when updating something like a MM dragon you don't have a good powerbase or even great concept to make new powers on. Now this is the standard Purple Worms stat block:
As you can see it's absolutely terrible. It has one pitiful damage attack, a bite and it loses that for clasping jaws. Now the point of a solo monster is that it should threaten five PCs. This creature is barely going to threaten one - let alone bloody one or even use its swallow. Bear in mind this is a creature designed around grabbing, but it has no way of holding its prey reliably because of all the conditions that can instantly end grabs: Daze, stunned and dominated for example.
But really, this creature will be making 2 attacks for the first two rounds (spending an action point to do so) and then it gets one attack for however many rounds it takes for the PCs to inevitably kill it. It's attacks at the incredible amount of damage of 2d8+7 damage. If is probably going to be lucky to bloody a single PC - let alone swallow anyone. Not to mention the high defenses the monster has as well, especially as this is a solider monster and back in the day, there weren't expertise feats giving you extra bonuses. So this is a classic MM example of a creature with a lot of HP and high defenses making a grindy, boring encounter.
Bearing in mind the OP, how would I improve it? Well I would rebuild it from the ground up first.
As you can see it's absolutely terrible. It has one pitiful damage attack, a bite and it loses that for clasping jaws. Now the point of a solo monster is that it should threaten five PCs. This creature is barely going to threaten one - let alone bloody one or even use its swallow. Bear in mind this is a creature designed around grabbing, but it has no way of holding its prey reliably because of all the conditions that can instantly end grabs: Daze, stunned and dominated for example.
But really, this creature will be making 2 attacks for the first two rounds (spending an action point to do so) and then it gets one attack for however many rounds it takes for the PCs to inevitably kill it. It's attacks at the incredible amount of damage of 2d8+7 damage. If is probably going to be lucky to bloody a single PC - let alone swallow anyone. Not to mention the high defenses the monster has as well, especially as this is a solider monster and back in the day, there weren't expertise feats giving you extra bonuses. So this is a classic MM example of a creature with a lot of HP and high defenses making a grindy, boring encounter.
Bearing in mind the OP, how would I improve it? Well I would rebuild it from the ground up first.
To derive the above stat block I changed a few things, particularly thinking towards "How do I want this monster to function?". The purple worm seems like something that should be very good at grabbing a PC and then tearing them limb from limb. Unfortunately forced movement and stun - fairly common conditions for paragon parties to have makes that a difficult concept to reliably pull off. So the first two traits are both designed with this in mind:
Restless Earth: Inspired from the earthquake dragon in MM3, this aura prevents grabs being ended from the purple worm by PCs simply throwing it away with pushes, pulls and slides. It punishes them with damage and can help slide them towards the purple worm - keeping them within reach.
Ring Brain: Annelids in real life have a ring brain around their gullet and their nervous system can function very quickly - I figure that's a decent name for a power that generally protects the purple worms action economy. In the end is this reduces the severity of the stun effect on the worm - though it will end up dazed and slowed (which can in some cases be just as good).
This effectively is the "compensation". It will get reliable actions every round, but it relies on enemies being near it and PCs can exploit its lack of ranged attacks - without making it too easy (terrain helps, an underground cavern is my suggestion!).
Attack powers were next. When changing the original worm I moved Clasping Jaws to a triggered action that just deals more damage - giving it an additional benefit from having a creature grabbed. Technically this is a free attack - meaning the PCs may have to make a decision about triggering the aura to free an ally who has been damaged. As an added side effect, Clasping Jaws also automatically sustains the purple worms grab if required for whatever reason.
Tremorshock is a way for the worm to buy itself some room to move around in. Frequently solos can get "stuck" in a corner if they are huge sized, simply due to PCs flanking them and the solo finding itself running out of places to move. Combined with bite, it usually means it makes several attacks every single round if required - especially remembering that Ring Brain protects its action economy from being dazed/stunned. It should present a consistent threat - unlike the original worm.
Insatiable Jaws: This lets the purple worm turn anyone unfortunate enough to be nearby it into a one stop chew toy. Especially when he's bloodied.
Drag Under: This allows the purple worm to shift to a new position and then stun/damage an important target for a while. Often whoever is throwing stun and daze powers at it.
Swallow: I really hate swallow as every example takes a text book to explain how the condition will work and how it damages the PCs etc. It's absolutely iconic as an ability to the purple worm so I didn't have the heart to remove it.
Burrow and Burst: Gives it the ability to pop up in a new place when boodied, taking the fight to the PCs where they may have stuck it somewhere at a large distance while immobilized or similar. This lets it get out of any potential issues and then get into the PCs faces: Twice as angry and twice as deadly! Not to mention it will now have three insatiable jaws attacks - so it will have that extra damage bump while bloodied.
Summary of Changes:
I rebuilt the creature from the ground up instead of modifying it, but it lost a fair chunk of HP (780>624), defenses (My fortitude is 5 less! AC is similar though) and it has gained the ability to make much more attacks on its own turn (so considerably more damage). Damage of the primary melee attack went up from 2d8+7 to 3d8+11 (that's a pretty good hike). Additionally the purple worm I made might actually get to use swallow - of course a wizard with Winged Horde might ruin its day still.
Of course after some thought, I would already want to change the stat block I made as I'm not happy with it - but as an example I think it's reasonable. Especially when compared with "adjusted" MM2 creatures and other monsters. Many of whom have an area or burst power, usually a couple of triggered actions and some move/minor actions. So they can make use of many of their actions during a round.
I made this as a quick example, but I might make a second and better attempt at the Elder Purple Worm actually. The core point though is the differences in HP and in this particular case, power design that are required to bring a creature up to "par" with other monsters. Just a quick demonstration of the main points from the OP anyway.
Edit: On reflection, I picked the Purple Worm as an example of a solo because it's easy to show how all the new maths make a big difference. On the other hand, if I really wanted to redo this monster I would drop it as a solo entirely and make it an elite instead actually. It would function much better as an elite than a solo IMO.
Restless Earth: Inspired from the earthquake dragon in MM3, this aura prevents grabs being ended from the purple worm by PCs simply throwing it away with pushes, pulls and slides. It punishes them with damage and can help slide them towards the purple worm - keeping them within reach.
Ring Brain: Annelids in real life have a ring brain around their gullet and their nervous system can function very quickly - I figure that's a decent name for a power that generally protects the purple worms action economy. In the end is this reduces the severity of the stun effect on the worm - though it will end up dazed and slowed (which can in some cases be just as good).
This effectively is the "compensation". It will get reliable actions every round, but it relies on enemies being near it and PCs can exploit its lack of ranged attacks - without making it too easy (terrain helps, an underground cavern is my suggestion!).
Attack powers were next. When changing the original worm I moved Clasping Jaws to a triggered action that just deals more damage - giving it an additional benefit from having a creature grabbed. Technically this is a free attack - meaning the PCs may have to make a decision about triggering the aura to free an ally who has been damaged. As an added side effect, Clasping Jaws also automatically sustains the purple worms grab if required for whatever reason.
Tremorshock is a way for the worm to buy itself some room to move around in. Frequently solos can get "stuck" in a corner if they are huge sized, simply due to PCs flanking them and the solo finding itself running out of places to move. Combined with bite, it usually means it makes several attacks every single round if required - especially remembering that Ring Brain protects its action economy from being dazed/stunned. It should present a consistent threat - unlike the original worm.
Insatiable Jaws: This lets the purple worm turn anyone unfortunate enough to be nearby it into a one stop chew toy. Especially when he's bloodied.
Drag Under: This allows the purple worm to shift to a new position and then stun/damage an important target for a while. Often whoever is throwing stun and daze powers at it.
Swallow: I really hate swallow as every example takes a text book to explain how the condition will work and how it damages the PCs etc. It's absolutely iconic as an ability to the purple worm so I didn't have the heart to remove it.
Burrow and Burst: Gives it the ability to pop up in a new place when boodied, taking the fight to the PCs where they may have stuck it somewhere at a large distance while immobilized or similar. This lets it get out of any potential issues and then get into the PCs faces: Twice as angry and twice as deadly! Not to mention it will now have three insatiable jaws attacks - so it will have that extra damage bump while bloodied.
Summary of Changes:
I rebuilt the creature from the ground up instead of modifying it, but it lost a fair chunk of HP (780>624), defenses (My fortitude is 5 less! AC is similar though) and it has gained the ability to make much more attacks on its own turn (so considerably more damage). Damage of the primary melee attack went up from 2d8+7 to 3d8+11 (that's a pretty good hike). Additionally the purple worm I made might actually get to use swallow - of course a wizard with Winged Horde might ruin its day still.
Of course after some thought, I would already want to change the stat block I made as I'm not happy with it - but as an example I think it's reasonable. Especially when compared with "adjusted" MM2 creatures and other monsters. Many of whom have an area or burst power, usually a couple of triggered actions and some move/minor actions. So they can make use of many of their actions during a round.
I made this as a quick example, but I might make a second and better attempt at the Elder Purple Worm actually. The core point though is the differences in HP and in this particular case, power design that are required to bring a creature up to "par" with other monsters. Just a quick demonstration of the main points from the OP anyway.
Edit: On reflection, I picked the Purple Worm as an example of a solo because it's easy to show how all the new maths make a big difference. On the other hand, if I really wanted to redo this monster I would drop it as a solo entirely and make it an elite instead actually. It would function much better as an elite than a solo IMO.
That's a really good suggestion actually. Having some damage types that aren't just regular damage would be a good improvement too.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Well, I still believe that the best solution for Solo monster problem is "Don't use it alone"
Well, I still believe that the best solution for Solo monster problem is "Don't use it alone"
I do agree, traps, terrain and other monsters can be vital. There is something that deep down appeals to me that a single large monster like a dragon should be an intimidating and exciting battle. It's an image that appeals to me and one I hope solos maintain in 4E.
AngryMojo
First Post
There are quite a few solos you can do this with, but you do need interesting terrain, and you generally need to avoid Soldier and Brute solos.
Well, I still believe that the best solution for Solo monster problem is "Don't use it alone"
But isn't that true since the MM1 itself?
None of the so-called SOLO monsters in their writeups actually came alone.
For example, the purple worm that was used as an example earlier was statted to be with 2 savage minotaurs.
Mithreinmaethor
First Post
People get too stuck on the word SOLO. No Solo monster was meant to be used alone for an encounter. Every Solo was listed with 1 or 2 (sometimes 3) possible encounters at level that included them plus other monsters.
As was stated above the Purple worm had this listed:
Level 18 Encounter (XP 9,800)
✦ 1 purple worm (level 16 solo soldier)
✦ 2 savage minotaurs (level 16 brute)
Or we can look at a Black Dragon also a Solo:
Level 5 Encounter (XP 1,225)
✦ 1 young black dragon (level 4 solo lurker)
✦ 2 dark creepers (level 4 skirmisher)
Level 13 Encounter (XP 4,300)
✦ 1 adult black dragon (level 11 solo lurker)
✦ 2 trolls (level 9 brute)
✦ 1 bog hag (level 10 skirmisher)
As was stated above the Purple worm had this listed:
Level 18 Encounter (XP 9,800)
✦ 1 purple worm (level 16 solo soldier)
✦ 2 savage minotaurs (level 16 brute)
Or we can look at a Black Dragon also a Solo:
Level 5 Encounter (XP 1,225)
✦ 1 young black dragon (level 4 solo lurker)
✦ 2 dark creepers (level 4 skirmisher)
Level 13 Encounter (XP 4,300)
✦ 1 adult black dragon (level 11 solo lurker)
✦ 2 trolls (level 9 brute)
✦ 1 bog hag (level 10 skirmisher)
Similar Threads
D&D 5E (2014)
Tidbit for monster design
