Doing the Monster Math for the original MM

[Colmarr]

Isn't level+3 the target number for attacks vs NAD? That would give her +10, but you put her at +11.

Hmm. So I did. Must have missed that the monster builder was defaulting to the wrong number. Editted now. Thanks

 

[Aegeri]

Thank you for sharing the analysis of how to upgrade MM monsters to the new Monster Vault/MM3 design standards. If I might ask, how would the guidelines differ when upgrading MM2 monsters to these latest design standards?

Depending on the creature, all most monsters need is new damage expressions. Brutes get +2 accuracy and Soldiers get -2. MM2 already incorporates the changes to solos HP and defenses. So they need the least work in making them up to current standards. Where everything pre-MM3 is let down a bit is in power design. Monsters power design gets better and better with every supplement (MV is outstanding). In fact it can be easy to tell what monster comes from what source solely by the kind of powers it uses.

Be aware, in reference to the above that things aren't 100% set in stone. Some monsters seem to deliberately have less accuracy, like the apes in MM3 that are brutes that still have only +3 to attack. I think there is some leeway on giving monsters a somewhat varied attack bonus.

 

[caudor]

Thread Rez! I knew I had seen a thread that provided a step by step method of updating monster to MM3 math (with some examples). Thanks again Aegeri

I want to see if I've learned this correctly by trying my hand at it. I chose an easy one--the Hill Giant from MM1.

Forgive me for the format, I haven't figured out to make the pretty stat blocks used in other examples. Here is my updated version:

Hill Giant Level 13 Brute Large natural humanoid (giant) XP 800
Initiative +5
Senses Perception +7
HP 159; Bloodied 79 AC 25; Fortitude 27, Reflex 21, Will 23 Speed 8

m Greatclub (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon Reach 2; +17 vs. AC; 1d10 + 15 damage.

M Sweeping Club (standard; encounter) ✦ Weapon
The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.

R Hurl Rock (standard; at-will) Ranged 8/16; +17 vs. AC; 2d6 + 15 damage.

Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Giant Skills Athletics +16 Str 21 (+11) Dex 8 (+5) Wis 12 (+7) Con 19 (+10) Int 7 (+4) Cha 9 (+5) Equipment hide armor, greatclub
All stats are copyright of Wizards of the Coast.
--------
Changes I made:
1. Tripled the static damage on both the melee and ranged attacks
2. Since we are dealing with a brute (not an elite or solo), I didn't see a need to change the HP or the Non-AC defenses.
3. Added +2 to hit for all attacks

Thanks for looking this over. If you see anything I messed up, please let me know.

 

[S'mon]

Hill giant - 13th level standard brute, median damage should be (13+8)x1.25 = 26. 2d10+15 would work, I'd use 3d10+9 or +10. For the hurled rock as he's not artillery avg 21 looks about right, I'd use 3d6+10.

Here's an elite 8th level hill giant I did which looks more like MV/MM3 design:


Hill Giant Barbarian Level 8 Elite Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 700
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +4
HP 214; Bloodied 107
AC 21; Fortitude 22; Reflex 17; Will 18
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8
Action Points 1
m Greatclub (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +13 vs AC; 3d10 + 9 damage
m Sweeping Club (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against one or two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.; +13 vs AC; 3d10 + 9 damage
R Hurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 12; +10 vs Reflex; 3d6 + 9 damage; and a Small or Medium target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone.
M Brutal Strike (standard; recharge 5 6) • Weapon
Reach 2; The hill giant makes a brutal overhead strike to the foe's head.; +13 vs AC; 4d10 + 18 damage, and a Small, Medium or Large target is knocked prone and dazed (save ends)

Steady Footing
When an effect pulls, pushes, or slides a hill giant, the giant moves 1 square less than the effect specifies. Also, the giant can make a saving throw to avoid being knocked prone.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +14
Str 21 (+9) Dex 8 (+3) Wis 10 (+4)
Con 17 (+7) Int 5 (+1) Cha 7 (+2)
Equipment Hide Armor, Greatclub

 

[caudor]

Thanks S'mon!

Is the purpose of changing 2d10+15 to 3d10+9 to add more randomness in damage results and/or lowering the floor for minimum damage?

 

[S'mon]

Thanks S'mon!

Is the purpose of changing 2d10+15 to 3d10+9 to add more randomness in damage results and/or lowering the floor for minimum damage?

It adds more randomness, does bigger crit damage, and "+9" 'looks like' a STR bonus, maybe with a couple damage-adding feats, so I think it just feels better, more PC-like.

 

[keterys]

A lot of PCs add 2 for feat, 3 for enhance, 2 for item by that level, so I'm not entirely sure it's more PC-like

 

[S'mon]

A lot of PCs add 2 for feat, 3 for enhance, 2 for item by that level, so I'm not entirely sure it's more PC-like

Well unless you're a Thief you're probably not doing +15, but yeah 2d10+15 is fine too.

 

[keterys]

I had to make a level 8 PC for a ridiculous power gamer playtest, and I want to say I was doing something ridiculous like +26 at that level... hmm... 5 or 6 stat, 2 enh, 2 item, 1 feat, 2 power, 3 cold, 5 prone... +2 cause I was a scout with an axe. hmm. Maybe it was just +23. Still ridiculous

 

[caudor]

After all this, I discovered the Hill Giant was updated in the Monster Vault


Hill Giant
Large natural humanoid (earth, giant)

Level 13 Brute
XP 800
HP 159; Bloodied 79 Initiative +5
AC 25, Fortitude 27, Reflex 23, Will 25 Perception+7
Speed 8
Standard Actions
Greatclub (weapon) At-Will
Attack: Melee 2 (one creature); +18 vs. AC
Hit: 3d10 + 11 damage.
Hurl Rock (weapon) At-Will
Attack: Ranged 10 (one creature); +18 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 8 damage.
Sweeping Club (weapon) Encounter
Attack: Melee 2 (one or two creatures); +18 vs. AC
Hit: 3d10 + 11 damage, and the giant pushes the target up to 2 squares and knocks it prone.
Str 21 (+11) Dex 8 (+5) Wis 12 (+7)
Con 19 (+10) Int 7 (+4) Cha 9 (+5)
Alignment chaotic evil Languages Giant
Equipment: rock x5, greatclub .
Revision (7/16/2008)
Replace the greatclub damage: “1d10 + 5 damage” with “2d10 + 7 damage.”

We ended up pretty close in the update, but had not checked the MM errata before attempting the update. I see the Giant's STR accounts for the +11 on melee damage. Still trying to figure out the +8 on the ranged attack. Anyway, we got close.