Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

The point I tried making before, and the same one many others have tried to say, is that SOME CREATURES AREN'T BALANCED BY COMBAT. The Doppelganger is NOT meant to charge in and fight. Its a NON combat style monster. Sure, a Fighter would kill one easily...but a Fighter could kill a lot of things without much problem.

The Doppelganger's abilities CAN be used for combat, but they are optimized for NON combat use. Doppelgangers are some of the best villians possible...because...simply, they could be ANYONE. I don't think, however, that it is a good PC race at all. It puts far too much power into the PCs hands(as do many other ECL races...). If you want to allow it in your campaign...nothing wrong with that. Change the LA if you want, it won't really hurt too much. WotC put it at what it is...and many of us agree with it. We aren't wrong for agreeing, and you aren't wrong for disagreeing. Its not a good thing to get angry with people just because they don't agree with you.

 

[Saeviomagy]

As for detecting the doppelgangers abilities with a detect magic...

It would just detect a transmutation aura and a divination aura. Most likely the same two auras that the wizard has on him (mage armour and detect magic IIRC)...

 

[the Jester]

I'll ask again.

Where, oh where, does it say that LA and ECL shouldn't factor in non-combat abilities?

I'm pretty sure you're dead wrong about that one. Especially because you keep dodging the question and it's come up about four times so far on this thread. Hey, let's raise it again.

It sounds like you play/dm a game that focuses on combat exclusively, or nearly exclusively. That's the only explanation I can come up with for why you don't see the value in a doppleganger's ability to read minds and alter his form. In any campaign where not every npc is of your CR, those are fantastic abilities. Most games do include things like townsfolk, minor nobles, low-level npcs walking the streets, etc.

I'd say if you demand others do an analysis of the stats when you're too lazy to do so yourself, and then you deride those who did do the work and tell them to 'do your homework,' you prolly don't want a discussion- you want affirmation. Well, unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you about this, and if you want to persuade anyone you'll have to do more than make the same sweeping statements over and over again, you'll have to back them up.

And just so it doesn't get lost, I'll ask one more time: where's it say you shouldn't take non-combat oriented abilities into account in a creature's LA/ECL?

 

[Dash Dannigan]

I did extensice testing. Again, I left out any *roleplaying* things. As they just dont apply to what LA's should be about, because reading the mind of the monster / guy who tears you apart with single blow doesnt help you.

ROFLMAO, if the D has gotten to this point then the D has already failed. Your grasp of the D is obviously flawed.

My campaigns contain a lot and very complex roleplaying. Still combat is harsh and deadly, and comes up now and then. And at 10th to 11th level play, I can tell you from first hand experience that the D. as is sucks it hard.

Sounds like someone had a BBEG that got squished before those precious plots got finished and plunged the campaign into darkness to me. Shouldn't take it out on the D ya know. As I said if the DNPC got to combat he already failed.

Allow me to elaborate with an analagous argument if you would:

Hey everybody look I've got a Space Shuttle! But it sucks! Man, how can you tell me these things are worth so much?? I don't believe it. They are barely manueverable in atmosphere and only glide, what kind of plane is this!? Doesn't even have any kind of armament! I mean HOW can you say it could possibly COST this much?? What does it do? I mean when it comes right down to it (discounting all that space exploration, space station, and research stuff) if this thing comes up against a jet fighter its TOAST. So you guys can just shut the heck up unless you agree with me. I've looked at it from all directions (except one) and I don't see how ANYONE would want to pay THAT much for a stupid plane...

 

[Kalanyr]

The DMG states in the Prestige Chapter that roleplaying restrictions should not be used to balance Prestige Classes, by extension this means that when you are trying to balance something that Roleplaying should not be a factor, to which I agree, the Drow at +2 LA obviously does not include the "Everyone wants to kill me" adjustment common in most campaigns since 40% resitance to equal level casters isn't worth not being able to buy equipment, having no one trust you and such.

Roleplaying restraints vary too much from campaign to campaign to be taking into account, in my opinion LA should be based on combat ability so that said character can survive combats unlike Savage Species in some cases eg the Ghaele Eladrin is CR 13 and ECL 20 which means that a level 20 party with 4 Ghaele Eladrin as members can fight as a EL 20 ie 20% resources challenge 12 Ghaele Eladrin of the same basic abilities as they are, thats a combat thats almost impossible to survive let alone get away with a mere 20% loss of resources. ECL and LAs like that don't help they just punish a player rather nastily for wanting to play something different. Nearly all D&D games feature combat, therefore if a creature dies the second it hits combat its LA/ECL is to high since it won't get to use its other "LA-boosting" powers, because its dead.

As for the Doppleganger ECL/LA thing, I haven't looked at it closely enough to judge but I will agree with reaper that Monster HD != Class Level, despite its strong points 1 Monstrous Humanoid HD != 1 level of monk (Same HD size, monk has better skills, special abilities and saves and the same BAB progression).

 

[Kalanyr]

Sounds like someone had a BBEG that got squished before those precious plots got finished and plunged the campaign into darkness to me. Shouldn't take it out on the D ya know. As I said if the DNPC got to combat he already failed.

Um, BBEG don't have ECL merely CRs, ECL and LA have no effect what so ever on NPCs, this is as much a strawman as some of Simulcrams more overenthusiastic postings, perhaps you should check such things before you post.

 

[Technik4]

As for the Doppleganger ECL/LA thing, I haven't looked at it closely enough to judge but I will agree with reaper that Monster HD != Class Level, despite its strong points 1 Monstrous Humanoid HD != 1 level of monk (Same HD size, monk has better skills, special abilities and saves and the same BAB progression).

Actually the monk has 3 good saves, medium BAB, d8 hp, and 4 sp/level. The monstrous humanoid levels have 2 good saves, fighter BAB, d8 hp, and 2 sp/level. Of course, those monk levels all have powers and such which the monstrous humanoid level don't, but the m.h. levels are kind-of like the "tuition" you have to pay to be certain races, like the doppleganger.

Technik

 

[Kalanyr]

Heh, oops new I overlooked something with the BAB. Thanks Technik.

But isn't the LA the tuition you are paying to play certain races ?

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Um, BBEG don't have ECL merely CRs, ECL and LA have no effect what so ever on NPCs, this is as much a strawman as some of Simulcrams more overenthusiastic postings, perhaps you should check such things before you post.

NPCs can have ECLs/LA and a bbeg can be an NPC, not only monsters, so I must disagree on these points. ECL and LA are just as applicable to NPCs as to PCs, not sure why you wouldn't think so.

As for Simulcrum, most have marked his unusual vehemence against the LA for the Doppleganger. Its perfectly possible to make reasonable conclusions as I have. It's up to him to respond I think unless I have somehow offended you. In that case, my apologies and I shall refrain from doing so. Nonentheless I hope the analogy wasn't lost in the distaste.

 

[Kalanyr]

No they do not an NPC monster with a class level uses his CR + Class Level for a favoured class and some fraction of class level for a non-favoured class to determine their CR.

They could have an ECL or an LA but its used for nothing therefore it basically does not exist.