Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[Simulacrum]

As for detecting the doppelgangers abilities with a detect magic...

It would just detect a transmutation aura and a divination aura. Most likely the same two auras that the wizard has on him (mage armour and detect magic IIRC)...

TWo words Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight. Insta blow up of the Doppelganger.

Also dont forget that the aura is a large cone from his head.
That will call up suspicion by the most feeble unexperienced spellcaster and he will silently alarm his superiors.

 

[Simulacrum]

The DMG states in the Prestige Chapter that roleplaying restrictions should not be used to balance Prestige Classes, by extension this means that when you are trying to balance something that Roleplaying should not be a factor, to which I agree, the Drow at +2 LA obviously does not include the "Everyone wants to kill me" adjustment common in most campaigns since 40% resitance to equal level casters isn't worth not being able to buy equipment, having no one trust you and such.

Roleplaying restraints vary too much from campaign to campaign to be taking into account, in my opinion LA should be based on combat ability so that said character can survive combats unlike Savage Species in some cases eg the Ghaele Eladrin is CR 13 and ECL 20 which means that a level 20 party with 4 Ghaele Eladrin as members can fight as a EL 20 ie 20% resources challenge 12 Ghaele Eladrin of the same basic abilities as they are, thats a combat thats almost impossible to survive let alone get away with a mere 20% loss of resources. ECL and LAs like that don't help they just punish a player rather nastily for wanting to play something different. Nearly all D&D games feature combat, therefore if a creature dies the second it hits combat its LA/ECL is to high since it won't get to use its other "LA-boosting" powers, because its dead.

BINGO!

 

[the Jester]

BINGO!

No dice, if this is where you got the assertion that LAs shouldn't include roleplaying factors.

The statement re: prestige classes in the dmg is not that you shouldn't factor in roleplaying advantages to the class, just that you shouldn't try to balance mechanical advantages with roleplaying drawbacks (see the old 2e kits for tons of examples of this mistake).

What you seem to be arguing is that you shouldn't count the advantages. It's more like saying, "Well, my prestige class gives me detect thoughts and change shape at will, but that doesn't count, since they're just roleplaying thingies. I also get (insert combat ability), so now it's balanced." Apples and oranges.

Perhaps you're thinking of CR. CR shouldn't generally be affected by roleplay abilities that don't come into play in combat, because they don't affect combat significantly. LA/ECL is not about just combat- they're about campaign play. If you want a measure of sheer combat ability- if that's all your game consists of- use CR in place of ECL.

ECL and CR are entirely different.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Yeah, definitely not "bingo."

A typical adventure has roleplaying and negotiation encounters. The usefulness (and thus, the appropriate ECL) of a player character is obviously affected by things like detect thoughts and disguise ability. And this is, indeed, one of the differences between ECL and CR.

However, I'll bet a nickel against every convincing certain people of that, so it doesn't seem worth arguing about further. If you don't see it right away, it seems clear that you never will.

 

[Simulacrum]

Oh look someone is feels bad now I proofed you wrong.

Other than that I didnt say it should be just be balanced combat wise, but that this is the MOST IMPROTANT factor.
All in all things with the same ECL/LA should be at least comparable. D. and Half Celestial are so far apart that it isnt on the same field anymore, no its not even in the same league!

Here a little analysis:

I post the exact benefits of both, the LA benefits fro both the HC and the D.
Then I give out 1 to 5 points for the quality of the benefits for both. After that well calculate the summ and look into some furter analysis ok? (I give out an extra point, or less if the difference is very high)
I only list the differences. So some things might miss.

Left is D. right value is HC

Type:
Monster Humanoid vs. Outsider
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Outsider is FAR better. Points: 2 vs 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed:
30 vs. 30 + 60 FLY
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldnt be better.Full flight in heavy armor anytime rocks. 1 vs 5
clear win for the HC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
AC:
+4 vs +1
--------------------------------------------------------------------
D. wins 4 vs 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Special Attacks:
detect thoughts vs. Daylight (at will) + Smite Evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty equal: 3 vs. 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Su or Spell like abilities:
ZERO ZILCH vs. Prot. from evil (x3), bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious, neutr. poison, holy smite, rem. disease, dispel evil, holy word, holy aura (x3), hallow, mass charm monster, summon monsters IX, Resurrection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
HARHAR. the list is so awesome the points are: 0 vs 6.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Special qualities:
Change Shape + darkvision +immune to sleep and charm vs. Darkvision, Immune to disease, Resistance: Cold 10, Acid 10, Electricity 10 + DR 5/magic and later DR10/magic, natural weapons are magical +good,
Spell resistance 10 +HD, +4 vs poison.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
no comment (most HC features scale with level) too,
The points: 1 vs 6. (awesome nearly over the top)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilites:
+2str,+2dex,+2con,+2int,+4wis,+2cha (total bonus +14) vs.
+4str,+2dex,+4con,+2int,+4wis,+4cha (total bonus +20)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
awesome winner HC! 2 vs 5 because str and con counts alot.
Not to forget the HC get bonus stat when reaching 4th level, the D. wont get those for a loooong time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
skills:
2+ int vs 8+int
--------------------------------------------------------------------
as most people wont take racial HD, and stick to class levels only:
+2 vs. +3 (still a winner)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Wins for the D. =1
Wins for the HC =7

point total for the D: 15
point total for the HC: 34


devided through 8

LA = 1,87 (weak 2)
LA = 4,25. (strong 4)

Its a system I worked out that results in pretty much what a creature is worth, I always take the HC as example because its a benchmark for +4 LÁ
No further comment.

Of course this doesnt take in synergy things, nor details.
You still have to eyeball these things. But the sysem I use is flexible and it works on most creatures and templates perfectly, at least for a rough guess.

This is how balance and calculation should work, everything else is bogus and pulling wool over your eyes. If you dont get it than I'm sorry for you people, its hard to be lost.

btw: my campaings root deeply in immersive roleplaying so quit your lame attempts in trying to bad mouth me (us) as combat fanatics, as we clearly are NOT.
For people who observe my post, I'm the guy who always preaches that Point buy 25 to 28 is god and should be the ulitmate standart as well as all other tight restricions in power level for characters and their classes, choices.

Funny thing is, even when you shuffle around some points in favour of the D. (5 or so) it wont change the outcome a bit.

 

[Simulacrum]

Yeah, definitely not "bingo."

A typical adventure has roleplaying and negotiation encounters. The usefulness (and thus, the appropriate ECL) of a player character is obviously affected by things like detect thoughts and disguise ability. And this is, indeed, one of the differences between ECL and CR.

However, I'll bet a nickel against every convincing certain people of that, so it doesn't seem worth arguing about further. If you don't see it right away, it seems clear that you never will.

No its you who doesnt seem to see right I fear.
Check my post above. If you still dont get the wool from your eyes its your problem. If you cant face hard facts and truth, its your problem not mine.
I dont agree with wotc LA for some creatures, whats so wrong in saying that loud? Are you all blind or just too limited to just at least see that there *might* be some reason for me posting this.
But no just play all your super rawking D.'s in your campaigns and read some minds, THIS cleary wont change my opinion---*lol*

And actually its:

DOUBLE BINGO!

 

[Anubus]

btw: my campaings root deeply in immersive roleplaying so quit your lame attempts in trying to bad mouth me (us) as combat fanatics, as we clearly are NOT.

I'm sorry buddy but your entire analysis is based on combat. When do element resistance, DR, natural weapons, flying prove useful when your negociating? Your "system" gives extra points for the combat stats (Str and Con), how can you not expect people to think your running a hack and slash campaign?

Another point is how it seems that everyone in your world has true seeing 24/7, and that's why the D's abilities are useless. It's not common practice for the guards in my campaign to say, "Excuse me your magisty but I'll have to stare at you for 18 seconds before I can let you pass". Maybe in combat true seeing is common, or around high security areas, but most places/people will not have that ability.

Lastly one clear benefit in being a doppleganger over a Half-Celestial, is that Fiends will not attack me on sight.

I'm sorry you can't realize the benefits of the Doppleganger, maybe you should try making up a system that does arbitrarily assign how ever many points you feel like, but if you can't see how combat heavy YOU make YOUR campaign sound, then you should readdress that wool over peoples eyes comment.

 

[Piratecat]

Are you all blind or just too limited to just at least see that there *might* be some reason for me posting this.
But no just play all your super rawking D.'s in your campaigns and read some minds, THIS cleary wont change my opinion---*lol*

Uh huh. Then I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go.

Klunk.