Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[Simulacrum]

So am I illogical? You haven't referred to my post once. What is your argument? That an LA +2 Drow (no racial levels) vs an LA +4 (4 racial levels) is unbalanced towards the drow? Compare the following (Keep in mind I suggested that in a combat-heavy campaign the LA for doppleganger be reduced to +3 and the required number of Monstrous Humanoid levels be reduced to 3).

Pay attention please Simulacrum. No one is joking, and there is no pulling wool over your eyes, just cold hard facts. Each has been placed on the exact same path, a dextrous rogue with some combat ability. As you suggested, the drow version is going for assasin, none of the others have enough rogue levels.

These aren't fully statted characters, but enough for us to get an idea about them. Your big contenders, the drow rog/ass and the half-fiend (celestial, whatever, these are evil bastard rogues) rogue are clearly actually worse in combat. They both have lower ACs (much less in the drow's case), less BAB (in the half-fiend's case), and much poorer saves (specifically Will Saves - Although the drow would at least get a +2 vs spell-like and spells and an additional +2 vs enchantments, still not as good as the doppleganger (who is also immune to charms)). I mean, those are things that measure "combat ability" right? Oh, and hit points, the most glaring oversight in your argument. The doppleganger is 1.3 times as sturdy as either the half-fiend or the drow.

The drow does, admittedly, have some nice abilities like a high sneak attack and uncanny dodge (as well as evasion). The doppleganger doesnt have those abilities (yet) but his innate Change Shape which you so trounce is light years better than Disguise Self, what the assasin probably chose to learn to be this kind of rogue. Not only can the assasin's version be dispelled and disbelieved (its an illusion) it only lasts 20 minutes! The half-fiend is going to have to spend some money if he wants that kind of effect, and the only thing he really has going for him is his many resistances and the ability to cast darkness (presumably before fleeing).

The fact that I measured the doppleganger at the lowest level you can play one and showed that it is stronger than both of your suggestions should tell you something: do a little research before you start spouting off to everyone. If you really find the doppleganger so weak, my suggestion of a combat doppleganger (for campaigns where you cannot fully take advantage of the intrigue and deception a doppleganger can cause) will show you its easily the best character listed. Its basically like the regular doppleganger, but more hp, more rogue abilities, and better feats and BAB than even the drow.


Thanks for reading all the way through,

Technik

Edited: Change Shape is magical in nature, as it is a Su.
Edited2: Realized Half-fiend only had 8 levels total, raised him to Rog 5 (and adjusted stats accordingly).
Edited3: Miscalculated Doppleganger's feats, edited for correctness. (Thanks Sollir!)

This is not a good acid test, and its flawed as it doesnt reflect the true potential of what the drow or the half fiend can do. The doppelganger has one major weakness NO FLEXIBILITY AND NO CHOICE.
In fact that is pulling wool over my and everyones elses eyes.

I still admire your dedication to write that all up, but I must still turn it down as a weak and flawed comparrision.

You will ask what IS a good comparision?

There are plenty of ways, all of wich would require me to spend at least 2 hours of calculating and writing things up and posting.
I will not do that.

Everything your comparision proofed was that even an LA 2 Doppelganger is pretty weak, but at least can stand up to his advesary's.
Also your point that the D. has better saves is a weak way to hide the fact that the drow has SR and gets a bonus to his will saves (you didnt include)
And the half celestial/ half fiend is resistant and immune to nearly everything that can happen to you.

The comparision crumbles to dust as soon you take other classes (multiclass) into account. The doppelganger drops through the floor (not as much with LA 2 but still)

 

[Nail]

.......amazing. Simulacrum has toned down his rhetoric. (A bit...still needs work....)

You may find people more willing to accept your argument if you are less combative (and insulting) than your previous posts.

......

When I looked over the Doppleganger, I, too, was struck by it's high LA. Too high for my campaign, even though I have plenty of out-of-combat encounters (should the PCs chose that approach). GIven it's HD, I'd say +2 LA (6 ECL) is much closer to the mark. I supose +3 LA could be justified too.

The killer is those monstrous HD, making it an ECL 8. As [/b]Reapersaurus[/b] points out, that's just....well....whacked. You have to take LA in the context of the over-all ECL for the monster, or it just doesn't work.

This is especially true for abilities that don't have much synergy. The Doppleganger's abilities are Detect Thoughts and [/i]Shape Change[/i]. Those aren't supported well by, well....just a few extra HD.

 

[reapersaurus]

Simulacrum - I think I agree with your base argument (that the Dopp is overvalued at 8 ECL), but your posts have no solid arguments.
You don't stat things out, and build and compare the characters, like Technik does.

Yes, it takes some time, but if you care about convincing other people (and yourself), you should bother with building the characters.

I'll leave it to Technik to try and muck thru what was wrong with your 'not'-"weak, flawed comparison".

You will ask what IS a good comparision?

There are plenty of ways, all of wich would require me to spend at least 2 hours of calculating and writing things up and posting.
I will not do that.

You should take your advice, and

"Do your Homework, and start over."

 

[Artoomis]

Let's take a look at the potentially game-breaking Detect Thought ability:

Any PC doppelganger will know the thoughts of anyone it desire. Sooner or later you'll miss your save.

Meantime, all you get is a tingle to let you know that something is going on.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Further, his Detect Thoughts is suppressed and re-started as a free action. He can re-cast it every round if someone makes a save. Granted, it takes 3 rounds to pick up surface thoughts, but once you've done that you'll be tough to beat in or out of combat.

Also, Bluff is a combat skill. Feinting is Bluff-based and denies the dex bonus to your next attack.

Anyway, I'd not want to face a doppelganger in combat. I'd be facing all kind of oddness. Like when it assumes the form of my friend and now there's two of them - now what?!? And if it's reading our minds, it might even be able to convince me that's it is my buddy, causing me to fight against my own ally.

And on and on....

Detect thoughts and the shapeshift are a deadly combination. At least shapeshifting is a standard action - that keeps it from getting completely out of control.

If I was running a doppleganger, I'd rule the game!!! Every combat would contain massive misdirection and confusion - that would be my basic combat tactic.

If I just went toe-to-toe with another character, well, that would be stupid!! Looking to that for ECL adjustment would be like stating that a 9th level wizard should only count as 4th level because it does not have enough hit points.

 

[Corporal_Cupcake]

There's more to life than combat

I'm wondering why the never-ending insistence that one shouldn't take non-combat powers and abilities into consideration when determining ECL, level adjustment, whatever. Simulacrum, doesn't your DM have something other than hack-and-slash contests for your party to engage in? I don't mean to lecture, but D&D is more than a combat exercise (even if 3.5 pushes the game more toward a miniatures-style romp). So _why_ shouldn't I as a DM take the exceptional abilities of the doppelganger into consideration when allowing my players to bring such a creature into my game? I don't want such a creature mixed in with low-level PCs and townsfolk. The doppelganger would be able to do no wrong in role-play encounters and contrary to your earlier posts, would be able to at least keep himself alive in combat. Whereas that half-celestial would fail miserably at negotiating with any NPC who has an evil agenda or who is suspicious of winged creatures with silver or gold eyes.

 

[Simulacrum]

Simulacrum - I think I agree with your base argument (that the Dopp is overvalued at 8 ECL), but your posts have no solid arguments.
You don't stat things out, and build and compare the characters, like Technik does.

Yes, it takes some time, but if you care about convincing other people (and yourself), you should bother with building the characters.

I'll leave it to Technik to try and muck thru what was wrong with your 'not'-"weak, flawed comparison".You should take your advice, and

Than I can quote you that most (if not all) posts had no *solid arguments*

Still thanks for giving me right. The D. is not LA 4 he is LA 2

 

[Anubus]

As someone else already asked, where does it say that ECL should only take into acount the combat elements of a character? Does such a statement seems stupid to anyone else? I'm not going to reiterate the whole +2 vs +4 vs +10000000 LA, I couldn't care less about what other people think about that, I just want to know if this is actually a rule somewhere that I should possibly be abiding by.

Okay I lied there are a few things I wanted to comment on. First the acid test is supposed to be the ELC+1 level of most appropriate class isn't it? and to me Rogue seems the most appropriate, way more so than a fighter.

I personally don't have a problem with the +4. Sure you'll die if you go toe to toe with a fighter, but if you want to player a fighter, try being a fighter and not a doppleganger. Playing a doppleganger should be approached with the understanding that you're playing... a doppleganger!!! Which means that you'll need to devise combat methods that take advantage of your abilities, it's called creativity.

Lastly I know there are ALOT of rules lawyers on these boards, and to those people all I have to say is, breathe people, just breathe, it's okay, just calm down, that other persons evil and warped perception of the rules can't hurt you.

 

[Simulacrum]

Re: There's more to life than combat

I'm wondering why the never-ending insistence that one shouldn't take non-combat powers and abilities into consideration when determining ECL, level adjustment, whatever. Simulacrum, doesn't your DM have something other than hack-and-slash contests for your party to engage in? I don't mean to lecture, but D&D is more than a combat exercise (even if 3.5 pushes the game more toward a miniatures-style romp). So _why_ shouldn't I as a DM take the exceptional abilities of the doppelganger into consideration when allowing my players to bring such a creature into my game? I don't want such a creature mixed in with low-level PCs and townsfolk. The doppelganger would be able to do no wrong in role-play encounters and contrary to your earlier posts, would be able to at least keep himself alive in combat. Whereas that half-celestial would fail miserably at negotiating with any NPC who has an evil agenda or who is suspicious of winged creatures with silver or gold eyes.

HARHAR, I am the DM. My campaigns contain a lot and very complex roleplaying. Still combat is harsh and deadly, and comes up now and then. And at 10th to 11th level play, I can tell you from first hand experience that the D. as is sucks it hard.

First of all Detect Magic will reveal the Detect thoughts ability.
It will also reveal that change shape is active.

Detect thoughts isnt a complete mind read, its just catching up surface thoughts. As I said its good for the doorwaiter, but worthless against the BEG. Its also worthless against his more powerful cohorts. Or even a simple watchdog who can tell the difference between the D. and the Chief of the watch EASY.

Also no the D. with LA +4 has no chance in combat. Just try it out, youd be suprised how ty he performs. Cmon my whole gang tried it out and they all said the D. just gets the shaft no matter how you try to picture it. No matter how often you turn it around the fact stays the same.

Also a halfcelestial could accomplish about anything. And he can do much more than the D. on his own field. Just let him be a wizard, or a combat monster, than you can beat the info out of the BEG with ease.

 

[Simulacrum]

Let's take a look at the potentially game-breaking Detect Thought ability:

Any PC doppelganger will know the thoughts of anyone it desire. Sooner or later you'll miss your save.

Meantime, all you get is a tingle to let you know that something is going on.

Further, his Detect Thoughts is suppressed and re-started as a free action. He can re-cast it every round if someone makes a save. Granted, it takes 3 rounds to pick up surface thoughts, but once you've done that you'll be tough to beat in or out of combat.

Also, Bluff is a combat skill. Feinting is Bluff-based and denies the dex bonus to your next attack.

Anyway, I'd not want to face a doppelganger in combat. I'd be facing all kind of oddness. Like when it assumes the form of my friend and now there's two of them - now what?!? And if it's reading our minds, it might even be able to convince me that's it is my buddy, causing me to fight against my own ally.

And on and on....

Detect thoughts and the shapeshift are a deadly combination. At least shapeshifting is a standard action - that keeps it from getting completely out of control.

If I was running a doppleganger, I'd rule the game!!! Every combat would contain massive misdirection and confusion - that would be my basic combat tactic.

If I just went toe-to-toe with another character, well, that would be stupid!! Looking to that for ECL adjustment would be like stating that a 9th level wizard should only count as 4th level because it does not have enough hit points.

Statement 1: Gambreaking detect thought:

Probably in a 2nd level campaign. but wait the D. is ECL 8...wont happen. Later on its worthless.

Solid point a): It can be detected by several 3.5 spells. (both the disguise and the mind read as both are magical)

Solid point b): you'll be opposed by powerful magic and perceptive characters that can drop your cover faster than you can say *oh crap I'm busted*

Statement 2: Through mind reading you will be tougher to beat in combat

lol??? what makes you think so. that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If someone read my surface thoughts he wont do any better against my character than without.

also Faint is great, but you have to spend a feat to use it in combat, oh and you dont have any class level yet so its of no use anyway!
Later on get a full 1d6 sneak damage! WOW. That will make you so dangerous against 9th or tenth level fighters.....sure.

Statement 3: Detect thoughts and the shapeshift are a deadly combination

LOL its Change Shape, and not Shapeshift. Big difference.
The feature is weaker than alter self, every wizard will outperform you.

And yes its a standart action to change shape, thats whats makes it especialy useless in combat.

when I run Doppelgangers they suck it hard. When I'm not cheating and truly play after the rules and keep the ECL as is, they SUCK SUCK SUCK. Its true if you dont believe just start playing one. While all your players can enjoy their balanced powers and their good performance you will suck. You'll be a sad one trick pony.
And all your powers will be outperformed, detected, spoiled,
Oh you reached ECL 12 with a few levels of rogue?
Great now everybody (monster and players alike) can just drop your disguises through true seeing and other even more simple means. Magic is so powerful.

Combat - forget it. If you believe the weak attempt above to proof that the D. is any good in combat: dont believe it, its false.
With +4 LA you'll not survive the most basic fight, exept when you're hiding in the last rank and let others do the work for you. But thats not for LA. Everyone with charm person / diplomacy / leadership. can make others do their work.

Last statement: "If I just went toe-to-toe with another character, well, that would be stupid!! Looking to that for ECL adjustment would be like stating that a 9th level wizard should only count as 4th level because it does not have enough hit points"

Thats what you said. Dont put things in my mouth I havent said.

 

[Technik4]

Ugh

This is not a good acid test, and its flawed as it doesnt reflect the true potential of what the drow or the half fiend can do. The doppelganger has one major weakness NO FLEXIBILITY AND NO CHOICE.

The true potential? I showed everyone at level 9, incidentally the lowest level you can play a doppleganger according to 3.5 rules. If it didn't show the "true potential" then what will? Maybe I will take the time to show you all 3 at level 20. Of course the doppleganger has enough choice to pick his starting class, I just went with rogue (for everyone).

Everything your comparision proofed was that even an LA 2 Doppelganger is pretty weak, but at least can stand up to his advesary's.

An LA +2 Doppleganger wasn't compared. There was a Drow (ECL +2), a Doppleganger (at ECL +8), a Doppleganger (at ECL +6), and a Half-Fiend (ECL +4). Personally I didn't know what my calculations would reveal. I was skeptical myself. The monstrous humanoid HD held up very well, to my surprise. It has 2 good saves, fighter BAB, and the typical 2+Int skill points.

Also your point that the D. has better saves is a weak way to hide the fact that the drow has SR and gets a bonus to his will saves (you didnt include)

No, I actually talked about SR a little with Sollir. The fact is their SR is quite weak. Compare it to a monk's Diamond Soul ability (Sr = 10 + char level). The drow's is decent, only 5% behind the monk (11+char level, but ECL +2) and the half-fiends is fairly minor - I wouldn't expect it to save my bacon (10+char level, ECL +4).

And the half celestial/ half fiend is resistant and immune to nearly everything that can happen to you.

You've got to be kidding. The outsider benefit is nearly the same as the monstrous humanoid benefit (with some flaws when it comes to Protection or Aura spells) in that you are immune to things that target "humanoids". The only other resistances a half-fiend has is 10 resistance to a bunch of elementals. This would be far more impressive if it didn't ALSO have Evasion and a high reflex save, ensuring that those resistances aren't so useful. Of course, this bring up spells with saves, and not all of them have saves (resistances come in handy), and not all of them have SR (SR isn't handy).

My comparison point was the +4 Natural Armor. Apparantly I think this is a very good ability, equal to the other 2's SR (the fact that the half-fiend has very "lite" SR and only +1 Nat. Armor is kind-of a best of both worlds). +4 Natural armor is getting hit 20% less in combat, both melee and ranged. It won't help you against touch and ranged touch spells, true, but the doppleganger has about roughly equivalant touch AC to the other contenders.

A spell like an Extended Melf's Acid Arrow - which bypasses SR and doesnt have a save is very good against all involved, except the half-fiend's resistances save it. I would say the doppleganger has enough hp to ride it out, whereas the drow better find a potion.

The comparision crumbles to dust as soon you take other classes (multiclass) into account. The doppelganger drops through the floor (not as much with LA 2 but still).

Actually I think the doppleganger is even stronger by taking his next (hypothetical) level as a fighter. The feat and hp help out, and the ability to wear armor (even heavy armor) works well for disguises that get blown. Also since it is not your "typical" rogue, the doppleganger doesn't mind the skills hit too much as most of his are magical based, but he will greatly benefit by the AC and weapon choices (like a longbow).

Just make up a ECL 10 half celestial. Play it for 10 sessions
.
Make a ECL 10 Doppelganger and play it for 10 sessions.

It will be easy. Doperlganger will be completely useless, and probably dead after the first encounter you cant get away by disguising. (AND I CAN ASSURE YOU HE WONT SURVIVE AN ENCOUNTER THAT THE HALF CELESTIAL WOULD SURVIVE WITHOUT A SCRATH)

Your assurance might mean something if you take the time to back it up. Imo the doppleganger stands up pretty tall in a fighter vs fighter comparison, mostly because he has far better saves than the half-celestial (though likely a few less hp). The doppleganger will also have a higher AC, a fighter's bread and butter, and the same BAB (though less strength and dex).

The doppleganger character (ECL +8, Ftr2) will be far from useless with +6/+1 BAB, Base Saves +5/+5/+6 (before stats are taken into account, but after base doppleganger stat improvements are), and will have 5 feats (3 character + 2 fighter). The half-fiend would also have a BAB of +6/+1, Base Saves +6/+4/+2 (again before raw stats are made up, but after adding the bonuses for improved ability scores) and will have 7 feats (3 character + 4 fighter).

The character's aren't equal, Im not aruing that they are. But they are rather similar. The half-fiend has more varied powers, and a bevy of elemental resistances compared to the doppleganger's 2 potent supernatural abilities. However I wouldnt say one is USELESS and the other would GET THROUGH FIGHTS WITHOUT A SCRATCH. But that just isn't my style of debate (arguing?).

I did extensice testing. Again, I left out any *roleplaying* things. As they just dont apply to what LA's should be about, because reading the mind of the monster / guy who tears you apart with single blow doesnt help you.

I assume you mean "extensive". Unfortunately your credibility is nothing you should be relying on since you admitted you were too lazy to come up with some stats for comparison. See above, the doppleganger is almost as likely to die to a single blow as the half-fiend is, and if we are talking about some strong physical attack, I assure you the doppleganger has a 15% smaller chance of getting "hit" by it (due to his better natural armor).

LOL and any of you want to tell me that both are EQUAL?
sure
do your homework, and start over.

You aren't really in much of a position to tell someone that from where I'm standing, considering that would take like 2 hours writing and posting. Your posts are just the same bluster on page 2 as they were on page 1, happy gaming.

Technik