Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[RangerWickett]

Heck, by the standards of Four-Color to Fantasy's superpower rules, Doppleganger abilities should be worth about 5 levels. Mind you, though, these are 5 levels that inlude modest HD, BAB, and Save increases.

The whole monstrous humanoid thing does seem like it's freaky.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

I agree with FCTF rules, the Doppleganger, IMO, with a balanced ECL including HD would be +5 total. This is from experience and not from WotC's over-high (or wayyy too low in ELH) ECLs.

Drow, as per MM 3.5e should have +2 Dex/-2 Con ontop of +2 Int/Cha, you miss the line where it says, "As high elves" or similar, Technik.

Technik's results of his arguments, in his last post, however seem different than from what I see, the drow rogue and half-celestial rogue are clearly better than the Doppleganger. For instance, the drow has more skills than the Doppleganger, which *is* important since we're talking about rogues here. And both the half-fiend and the drow have more sneak attack bonus than the Doppleganger, so in the average party, they'd be doing more damage than him.

Also, unless the Doppleganger gains a bonus feat (too lazy to check, sorry), he should only have 2 feats with 5 HD. That said, SR 15 and SR 18 is definately nothing to laugh at for this level. The Half-Fiend also has better future advancement.

Just IMO...

 

[the Jester]

Simulacrum, you keep saying "that's not how you calculate ECL..."

Are you sure you aren't mixing up CR with LA (level adjustment) and ECL (equivalent character level)? You're focusing only on the combat aspect of things, not the fact that the doppleganger's abilities excel outside of combat. You claim that it's been said tons of times that you shouldn't include roleplaying benefits in judging ECL (although what you mean is LA). Where has this been said? I'd like to see it, cuz I've never read it.

If you want to follow a formula, look in Savage Species. You'll find that a doppleganger comes out at a LA of +4. The ECL is 8.

Also, I would suggest that your combative tone doesn't help discussion any- it doesn't prove your case, it just puts people off.

 

[Technik4]

Sollir:

It was kinda late last night. While I didn't mention the +2 Dex/-2 Con in my drow/doppleganger post, I did factor it in my next post.

I wouldn't say the half-fiend or the drow have better skills. The half-fiend has more skill points, but the same level as the doppleganger. The drow clearly has 2 more HD, but less Int, and of course, weaker stats (lower skill bonuses). Of course the doppleganger gains like an additional +14 disguise as a racial ability, not to mention a +8 bluff (if his detect thoughts is active). While these bonuses don't exceed the half-fiend's, they are very very useful in some situations (albeit, rarely in combat).

Furthermore both the half-fiend and the doppleganger probably qualify for Assasin next level. While the half-fiend has more skills, the doppleganger has a slightly higher BAB (thanks to his monstrous humanoid levels). The doppleganger also has more hp and far better will saves. The half-fiend is truly abysmal at will saves, and its something like an achilles heel. For the drow its still bad, but at least some racial abilities help to overcome it.

Offensively, the increased Sneak Attack (albet the half-fiend only has 1 more die) does make them slightly better in combat. However, as others have pointed out, it seems like the doppleganger, while having less sneak die, would tend to get more important/impressive sneak attacks off.

I may do a Doppleganger Rog2/Ass10 vs Drow Rog8/Ass10 vs Half-Fiend Rog 6/Ass10 later, but I have a feeling things will be much the same in terms of analysis. Less Sneak attack, higher hp, slightly better BAB, still has overwhelming spell-like abilities.

I did jack up the dop's feats too, I'll edit it.

Technik

 

[Iku Rex]

It's quite simple if you use the Acid Test presented in Savage Species:

That's not the "acid test". That's the process you go through before you perform the acid test (that is, eyeball the LA), and (usually) adjust the LA downwards.

+2 LA seems about right for doppelgangers. (+3 if not for the monstrous humanoid levels.)

 

[Ferret]

Been a while since he posted?

On the subject of the doppel ganger verses the cleric rogue and wizard why would they suspect him?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think Technik has quite eloquently expressed my point of view in the most part. There is one aspect of this discussion, however, that I think could use further elucidation:

Noncombat =/= roleplaying

Some posters have placed quite a bit of emphasis on the mantra that mechanical benefits shouldn't be balanced with role-playing penalties (and vise versa). However, "role-playing" here is best understood as referring to nonmechanical penalties and benefits--such as "must protect elves/must follow Pelor/etc" rather than non-combat (which would also include bonusses/penalties to bluff, diplomacy, etc).

The doppleganger's special abilities aren't particularly useful in most combats (although as Technik demonstrated, he is not clearly inferior to other ECL races in combat. . . whether or not he's inferior to non-ECL races in combat is another question; most ECL races are). That, however, does not mean that they are negligible in a campaign. IMO, detect thoughts is one of the most powerful non-combat abilities in the game; the ability to use what is essentially a stilled, silent, persistent Detect Thoughts at will is very powerful. (I wouldn't want to deal with it as a DM).

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think the big nasty in most of the ECL's is the fact that you HAVE to take the racial hit dice.

This seriously favours some monster types (celestial for instance - good bab, skills, saves, or even better, dragon) while screwing over others (you never want to be forced to take humanoid hit dice for instance).

And yet regardless of what variety of hit dice you have, they all count 1/1 as levels, and you're forced to take them all.

Personally, I'd simply force people to have at least as many class levels as the monster has hit-die before they can play. This more-or-less ensures that they're not suffering too badly in terms of hitpoints, skills and bab (a 1 hit die doppleganger for instance would be in big trouble in a 5th level game, even if that 1 hit die was a real class).

 

[Saeviomagy]

Did you ever read the Monster manual entry for the DD?

Its not SHAPESHIFT, its CHANGE SHAPE.
Its purly cosmetical, it doesnt give you wings or lungs that are capable to breathe underwater.
It doesnt give you ANY benefits, exept for Disguise.

Go read it again, then come back. Change shape gives a bunch of physical benefits.

Additionally while alter self specifically says "no templates", change shape doesn't. Nor does it refer to alter self. Therefore, templates are perfectly acceptable, as long as the resulting creature is of type humanoid. Celestial, fiendish and lycanthrope currently fit the bill.

 

[Piratecat]

Simulacrum - insult someone else, and win a free thread closing! Hmmph - "Mr Dorkmeat," indeed.